Omaha Folklore Project: Interview with Roman Pulcelik

. Andrew Fidler (AF) Roman Pulcelik (RP)

AF: - February 11th, 1978,

Andrew Fiddler interviewing Mr. Roman Pulcelik.

Mr. Pulcelik, when were you born?

RP: - February what?

AF: - When?

RP: - When?

February 8th, 1916.

AF: - And in what town?

RP: - In Lwow, in eastern part of Poland.

AF: - Eastern Poland.

Okay, and you were raised in that town?

RP: - Yeah, I was raised 'til about when I was 18.

AF- And you lived in Poland, that was until the war?

RP: - I lived in Poland until in 1942, when I was arrested.

August 1942, I was arrested by Gestapo.

'Til this time, I was living in Poland.

AF: - And what time were you in there?

RP: - Like I say, 'til 1936, in Lwow,

from 1936 'til 1939, Warsaw,

military academy, you know, corps of engineers,

and from 1939

'til '41, Warsaw,

from '41 back to Lwow and around Lwow,

'cause you know, I was in the partisan units too.

AF: - Okay.

And when you lived in Poland,

did you experience the Depression?

RP: - I didn't have time to experience any depression.

AF: - The Depression.

RP: - No, I can say I experienced depression in 1939

in September, you know, when

Poland was defeated by the Germans.

As a young officer, you know, you can say you,

(telephone rings)

you lost your country.

AF: - I mean--

RP: - Get it?

AF: - What I mean in the Depression,

in 1929 with the stock market--

RP: - Oh, I mean this way.

I can say I was young boy in these times,

and in 1936, I was in military high school,

and like I say,

I was outside the regular work,

'cause I was in military high school

because my father was highly decorated

and then I got the scholarship to military high school.

Hence from '31 to '36, I was in military high school;

the same, you know, I can say I was outside the

regular, normal life.

AF: - What was your father's occupation?

RP: - My father was

sergeant of Polish army.

AF: - Oh, he was a professional soldier?

RP: - Yeah.

AF: - Okay.

RP: - First, he was a merchant,

then he was called by Austria

during World War I, you know, called into service,

then after this thing, he went to the Polish army

and stayed in the Polish army.

Actually, I don't know if he was professional or not,

but he was in the service.

AF: - And your mother?

RP: - My mother, she was living all the time in Lwow

and she was living good...

Actually, I can't tell you what she was--

AF: - Just a housewife?

RP: - Housewife, you know.

AF: - And both of your parents,

you say your father was Polish and--

RP: - Yeah, my father was Polish, my mother was Hungarian.

AF: - Oh, I see.

RP: - But she was born from Hungarian parents in Lwow.

Actually, she was, I can say, when you ask her,

she will say she is Polish.

Or if you wanna know about,

that's something unusual,

because in 1918, you know, in Lwow, there was fighting

between Polish and Ukrainians,

and my father was one of the first

in Polish units.

Internal units, you know, they can say the city

against Ukrainians, and my mother was in this thing too.

They both decorated with the (speaking in foreign language)

that's something is for this fighting in Lwow.

That was November 1918.

AF: - Would you say your parents were poor or fairly wealthy?

RP: - Fairly, you could say, wealthy.

AF: - Fairly wealthy?

RP: - Fairly wealthy.

You could say my mother's parents were fairly wealthy

and the same, you know.

This thing, going down (laughs) the line.

AF: - How about your educational background?

You say you went to military academy.

RP: - First, military high school.

That's the regular high school,

I can say,

after you finish with high school we have to make in exams,

you know, the whole way.

Then we got the right to go,

we made the exams from regular material,

high-school material, which was about...

Written exams was on the six subjects, oral on eight.

Then, after this, you get your diploma

and I went to military academy, corps of engineers.

From 1936 to '39.

And in '39, actually in November,

I supposed to get this way,

graduate, you know, get my rank as second lieutenant,

but I didn't, because you know, the war broke out

and I went a sergeant from third-year,

academy, I went to the war and I got the rank

of second lieutenant already

on the battlefield.

On second or third day, I got my rank of second lieutenant.

AF: - So you were in the military academy before the war?

RP: - Yeah, 1936.

1936, and military academy, it was a three-year academy.

Actually longer, those three years, but it's 3 1/2.

But in 1936, I was in the first year

and you know, like you have in the second year, '37,

'38, third year, and '39 too, I was supposed to get

my rank and graduate in November,

November 11th, actually,

but like I say, war broke out

and I got my rank on the battlefield.

AF: - I see.

Did you anticipate the coming of the war?

RP: - We expected, I tell you why.

There was Easter, 1939 Easter,

and normally, we should have leave to go home,

but we didn't.

We was on alert, we couldn't even, in Warsaw,

because the school was in Warsaw,

in Warsaw we had to report where we're going

and we was on recall in emergency.

Then we know was something cooking.

Then, in August,

about August 9th,

I was sent to the unit.

See, I was trained special, because, I don't know,

because I was real maybe hotshot,

and I was trained in commando role,

I mean, commando-type unit,

and, I mean,

parachutist thing,

underwater swimming, and everything, you know?

And I was sent to very few, because I guess it was only five

in whole Polish army,

motorized engineer unit.

I was commanding officer of the

how you call this thing?

We call it (speaking in foreign language),

the intelligence unit.

AF: - Then you did expect the Germans to take over?

RP: - Oh yeah, we expect, you know, like I say.

Not take over, because--

AF: - Yeah, to attack.

RP: - To attack, because I would say

from about August 20, I was already on the border.

I mean, not close to the border but you know,

not exactly on the border but close to the border.

AF: - Did you, or did the other people,

expect the takeover to be so quick

for the Germans to come in?

RP: - No. No.

I didn't expect either.

'Cause I can say propaganda, inside Poland,

you know, from Polish government,

then propaganda from our higher commands,

it was expecting, you know;

I did have modern equipment,

but most of the units didn't.

But we can say we didn't expect to be

overrun so fast.

Because soldiers was good

and highly, like I say,

talking about my soldiers, I can say about my unit,

I can say that I can expect from them

they have done everything that they can.

And most, you know, this what I know

from other friends and these things.

But I can say it's...

You know, the stock

broke down, and like I say,

finally, we was left without

high commands, and we was pulling back.

AF: - I understand that the Germans had their own people,

or Polish people who worked for the Germans,

in the higher government officials.

RP: - I can tell you right now.

I can say, I don't go too far,

because I can say I was the only young officer

in all, but right in my school,

right in my class, graduating class, college, you know,

because we graduate annually.

There was three or four men,

there was Karowic,

parents probably Germans.

They live in Poland, they was raised in Poland,

they speak Polish.

They was admitted to the Polish military academy,

and I can tell you that

I guess 1941 or '42, '41.

I walk in Warsaw

in (speaking in foreign language) one of the main streets,

and who I see coming, in SS uniform?

Guy who was with me in the military academy.

AF: - With an SS uniform?

RP: - In SS uniform.

Ranking officer.

AF: - Hmm.

RP: - And then I talk, when I was over there in 1972,

in Poland, I talked with some friends of mine,

and they say they they thought other names, you know,

that they saw them in German uniforms later on.

AF: - So the Germans did have their own men--

RP: - Then you can see, there's only the small group,

you can say 70 men in the graduating class,

and we did have three or four of them.

Now, take it big, you know, up, up, up,

there was more, you know.

AF: - Yes, yes.

RP: - Because...

And I can say they did have, you know,

during the fighting,

we did have problems with Germans in civilian clothing,

which they called it (speaking in foreign language).

They live in Poland, they were born over there,

but they joined these partisans

and the diversion group, they was acting against

on our backs.

And that's a fact, because we caught few of them.

AF: - What was done to the people you caught?

RP: - We gave to the military authorities.

And what they have done with them, they would know.

AF: - They would charge as spies?

RP: - They charge as spies or diversion.

AF: - Do you think the German takeover was so successful

partly because of all the Germans

in the government officials?

RP: - Yes, then you know you can say Germans prepared this thing

really careful, you know.

I can say,

in the southern part of Poland, because I know about it,

there was big shipments to the Germans,

families come up with big shipments

of sardines from Germany.

You know, cans of sardines?

Now, they look like, everything good,

look from outside, but in fact, there was mines.

Small mines, you know, with detonators,

and they can put any place and detonate it

to demolish things.

The Germans blew up this, few days before the war,

blew up this railroad station in Tarnow.

That's a fact.

AF: - Hmm.

RP: - They caught some, but like I say,

there was every time, you know, "Don't make them mad."

Because the Polish government, they were doing everything

and they loves you.

But there was many cases

I can say we did more

case more bigger beyond when they blew up

this railroad station in Tarnow,

you know Tarnow is about 60,000 population

in southern part of Poland.

Then, this story with the sardine cans,

sound a little bit funny,

but you know the size,

like you know you guys buy in the store,

the big one.

Then, you know, there was regular mines

which were loaded with (coughs) explosives and detonators.

They was used by this diversions,

blowing up this...

AF: - Well it seems that the government officials

would say to the people,

"We'll take care of it, don't get upset over it,

"the Germans will get mad at us if we do this."

RP: - Yes, you see, they try avoid the war.

AF: - Ah, I see.

RP: - I mean, Polish government tried to avoid the war.

They was under the pressure, this what I know now

from literature, from books, and all things,

they was under pressure from England and France.

And with this pressure, you know, the Polish government

was playing with these cases when you can say

you can consider open there was no

units in the center

to destroy certain objects and certain things.

They was playing in the white gloves.

AF: - You mentioned before, you were captured by the Gestapo?

RP: - Yeah, I was captured by the Gestapo in August '42.

AF: - Well, you did see some combat before you were captured?

RP: - Oh, I see, I know I see it, it's 1942.

I fought in 1939, I fought in few angles.

I can say in Warsaw,

in the army in Warsaw,

and I fought in Warsaw until September 27th.

In September 23rd, I was wounded.

I lost my four fingers over there.

I was wounded September 23rd by 10 o'clock in the morning,

on Mikolow district.

Then, you know, I went in the hospital.

I supposed to, you know, they can say,

because I was officer, I supposed I have to

I got some problem with this hand, some infection thing,

I supposed to go to the prisoner Oflag, the prisoner of war.

But some ladies, some girls helped me

and I was out of the hospital,

and I joined, already in January of 1940,

I was already in underground.

AF: - Wow.

RP: - I mean, beginning, the underground.

From this time on,

in Warsaw, I was in the underground 'til 1941

when the German, you know, the German-Russian war started

and Germans took over the Lwow.

I got the orders to go over there

and organize, start working over there.

Then I went over there,

and naturally I got the contacts right away

and I got the order to organize battalion,

bulk, as they called us, 'cause it was crypto,

and I organized the battalion

and I was commanding this battalion.

Besides this thing, because I was in office of engineering,

partisan units, they didn't know how to use mines,

how to blow the bridges, how to blow the railroads,

tracks and all these things, and I did have,

let's say there was everything interconnected.

My watch that I was buying rubbers for factory,

and I could go outside the city

for three, four, five days to do something in the villages.

Naturally, I was going for three, four,

five, sometimes weeks.

In this time, I was instructing these partisan units

from in the forest, how to make mines, you know,

and how to make this...

Prepare this thing, how to mine these bridges,

how to mine these railroad tracks, and all these things.

Because these boys, they were green, you know,

you have to teach them from beginning.

And actually, sometimes I spend three, four, five days

with one sergeant from infantry regiment.

He died in a concentration camp.

We spent some time, I can say three, four, five days

training them boys.

And I was helping even the Russian youths.

I mean, the Russian partisan units.

AF: - Did your group, I understand there were

some of the underground groups, like the army cry-ovo.

RP: - I was in the army cry-ovo

because I was in the Zed-wu-zed.

That's a strictly military unit.

AF: - What was the name of that unit again?

RP: - Zedwuzed.

Beyond the march is burning.

They were strictly military units

and I was, like I say, I was commanding over the battalion,

the battalion I organized myself.

We have a problem; in Warsaw, it was easier

to organize something, like in Lwow,

because in Warsaw, they did have only Germans.

Now in Lwow, we did have Germans and Ukrainians against us.

Then we have to, like I say,

we have two enemies to cope with,

and most Ukrainians, they did speak Polish, you know,

you didn't know who was your friend or enemy.

Like I say, it was dangerous, you know,

but you can say I organized it, because

I was lucky, and I hid this non-commissioner officers

from two artillery regiments,

from Sixth, heavy artillery, and Fifth, regiment,

and from them, I organized whole battalions

and then they got more.

Then I can say, besides all these things,

i can say I was maybe twice or three times in month,

I was in the field.

Trainings, get the order, go in the field

to train these boys.

Like I say, they was all different.

In this case, there was

they were just army Ludoba

and it was battle unit corps there;

there was factions too, you know.

Because you can say we didn't pay;

my order was, "Get them trained," you know,

and when I got them, they know how to do it.

One day I was going back, you know, that's...

AF: - I see.

When the Germans took over,

did they impose very much censorship or oppression

on the Polish people?

RP: - Everything, I can say; I can tell you one thing.

First,

executions.

There was open executions

in every city.

Open, you know, on the streets, like in Warsaw.

If you go in Warsaw now,

on (speaking in foreign language),

not far from the new hotel,

there's a wall, part of wall.

And you can see the bullets over there,

how they hit the wall.

They execute about 140 persons over there.

And, you know, oppression, I can show you something.

I got something very interesting

from the cemetery.

That's a memorial cemetery not far from Warsaw,

it's a military cemetery.

That's where Germans executed the people who is partisans,

and executed the people from Piechocinski,

maybe you hear about him.

AF: - Mm-hmm.

RP: - Yes, he was executed by Gestapo.

He has home club, you know, sports club,

this time, he got.

Every year.

Here is the prison.

You see, that's the name of the man who was killed

in the prison.

That's the prison, they call it Padya.

Here,

we gonna see the cemetery.

(pages turning)

I got a few about few weeks ago, this album.

Now, come on.

This whole part is on news.

You see here.

Here, they executed the people, and they executed...

See, that's the graves.

Cemetery looked like this.

AF: - (whistles under breath) Wow.

RP: - 6,000.

You see they was getting them out.

Like here, the vice-president, if you know,

in charge of (speaking in foreign language) is Senate,

you know, think?

He was marshal for Polish Senate, before the war.

He was executed; this was by his body.

Here.

Here is this.

That's only one cemetery by Warsaw.

6,000,

I mean 6,500 or 6,600 people executed.

Now, by every city,

Krakow, Lwow, or Lublin, everything, it's the same thing.

Every night, when I was in the prison,

Gestapo prison, every night, here,

you can see, here you have pictures.

The Germans...

You read in Polish, yeah?

AF: - A little bit.

RP: - Time's this..,

They're putting the blindfold on these women

before execution.

depiction,

original picture, German picture.

You see?

AF: - They executed men and women both?

RP: - Men, women, children too.

AF: - Did they just pick people at random

or did they charge--

RP: - They pick up some people on the streets.

AF: - They charge them with a crime?

RP: - No.

They said, you know, they pick up some people on the street.

Or, I can say, you was in a streetcar,

going home or going someplace.

They stopped the streetcar and took all men

from the streetcar.

They put them in the prison.

They said now, if

somebody gonna get killed, Germans will be killed

or something, these men who they picked up

in this streetcar, they gonna be executed.

Made sure fighting was going on,

and some German soldier was killed or something.

Boom, you know, next day, they was hanged or shot.

AF: - No trial or nothing?

RP: - No.

AF: - Hmm.

That's unbelievable.

RP: - Mind you, when the Gestapo got me,

they put me in prison.

There was--

AF: - When you were captured by the Gestapo?

RP: - Yeah, when they got me, naturally, they took me

to the prison on Wonski Street.

say it was about the size of the room,

I can say 12 by six or by eight.

Nothing in it.

Raw.

And actually, about 20 men in it.

AF: - 20 men in the cell?

RP: - Yeah.

There was about two Greeks.

Only about three days later they called me

and they took me to Gestapo.

They tried to get out who I already know.

They know that I was something in underground,

but didn't know who.

Now I tell you one thing, three days and three nights,

there was interrogation, you know, called this.

They beat me

I didn't give up anything.

So far, I can say one thing so far,

my step-father was living with me

in the same apartment.

There was not too big love between us,

and he was intelligence officer for my battalion.

They didn't even touch him, you know,

because I didn't give up names.

Until today, I can't remember names.

For me, I remember number, I remember first name,

but I can't remember names,

because I build in myself that I never remember names.

They beat the head for me.

They used electricity, you know, they put one here,

you know what the steel crank?

They put one here, they put another--

AF: - On the neck and on the hand?

RP: - The hand.

They start crank, and naturally twist you

in all different things.

They didn't get anything, and when I came back,

they brought me back, I didn't need to wear

this camouflage uniform.

I was black, blue, pink, polka dot, everything, you know,

I had spots.

And actually, I can say there was, between us prisoners,

they rubbed me, and we didn't have any help, you know.

Guys rubbed me with water and you would think, naturally,

it hurts like the Dickens, but

Even the monsignors, they gave me last rites, you know,

you never know what's gonna happen.

Now,

I came up with this thing.

Now there was worse, worse, worse thing:

every night, around one o'clock, two o'clock,

they come in with the dogs, Gestapo.

They was calling names, you know, open the cell

and call the names, and was taking people to be shot

or to the sand pits.

But, you know, you live in this atmosphere, every night,

you hear these noises, doors opening, calling names,

and people screaming,

Yelling.

Some women crying, something, men ,

and you expect the same.

it happens that they got something better for me.

That was October, I guess.

October they sent me...

No, September.

September or beginning of October, they sent me

to Majdanek, concentration camp Majdanek.

Not me alone, but over transport bus,

about 600 men

from Lwow.

And we work over there, naturally, we worked.

You know how this thing .

Off the bat, because we was

we

AF: - Oh, yes.

RP: - I worked in the ditches, digging ditches.

I can say, I talked with your father a while ago,

I said I'm sending to , I will go blind.

It's easy to go blind killing

the morning every month,

but one incident which I never will forget

until I die.

I was digging ditches, I was standing...

There was wire fence, was standing a kid.

Maybe seven-, eight-year-old.

I don't know boy or girl.

Dirty, in the striped uniforms that, you know,

and he called me, (speaking in foreign language),

"Daddy," you know?

(speaking in foreign language)

"Daddy, please give me bread."

(chuckles) I'm sure Daddy didn't hear; I wasn't Daddy.

But you know, I can say, I was young man at this time,

but I tell you, I didn't have a bread myself, I don't think.

But this memory of this child begging me

for crumbs of bread,

it stayed in me, you know I can say, inevitable way.

We was over there 'til about November,

then they put us in cattle box carts,

and, I don't know, we got something to eat, I guess,

bread.

There was transport to this Flossenburg concentration camp.

Now, Flossenburg concentration camp

was basically everybody who came in,

I came in with the second Polish transport, they call it.

Basically, everyone from us did have a death sentence.

Everyone from us did have a death sentence.

On our files was marked,

'cause you see, I was later on, after the war,

I was witness in this court procedures

against these commanders, you know, and the whole thing.

On our file, was in German, in red ink,

"Shall never see the street."

AF: - Huh.

RP: - And, you know, I tell you, we was working

in rock quarry.

I was lucky, something about big Lady Luck behind me,

and I survived.

The first years; later on wasn't so bad.

My number was, in Flossenburg, was 3523.

That's my number, and the last number,

that is official last number, was 140,000.

What's in between, they was gone.

Died, you know, killed.

I was lucky, because I was...

I call this 550, you know, my luck.

I was always clean, because military, I was always clean,

and they kept me block leader.

When transport came in, he left me on the block

to keep the block clean.

He sent me to get the potatoes

for him, from the kitchen.

But I went to get the potatoes,

and SS man caught me!

Naturally, I few kicks, you know,

and right hand, sure, couple times in the nose.

No question, you know, "Who gave you?"

"Nobody, I stole."

"For who?"

"For myself."

No!

They took me to this block Number One, there was office.

They start interrogate me, I didn't give up nobody.

They give me 25 on my hind end.

I made a mistake counting and I got another 25

and it was 50, but second time, I count really loud.

But this man, this block leader,

he did have influence.

He was criminal, he was a murderer.

He was regular German criminal,

and he could see, because I didn't give up,

I didn't squeal on him, instead of going, you know,

to rock quarry to carry these rocks,

I was transferred to the borders commander,

I was drilling in the tunnel.

I was drilling holes for this dynamite.

Which was one of the best commands.

Because this tunnel was, could say

three feet tall .

The SS men wouldn't crawl over there, you know?

It was all dirt inside his mouth.

This thing was going, dust,

you know, from the rock,

protect yourself, but there was, you can say,

there was fairly...

This gave me chance to survive.

Later on, this block leader,

he became camp leader,

the highest prisoner in command in the camp.

Later he was killing men right and left,

but I can say I was in a grace with him

because I didn't

and then from this time on when he became this camp leader,

I was getting, you can say, a quart of soup from him.

You know, it's the good soup, not some kind of water soup,

was the really good, good one.

Everyday in , I had to go down to the block Number One,

and take up little quart of soup.

And was getting better .

This helped me to survive.

Later on, when they switched,

in, I guess, 1943,

by the end of 1943, they start building.

They create this rock quarry business,

and they built this factory plant,

they was building massive fighters.

And because I have my technical background

from corps of engineers, and they didn't know I'm officer,

because I would be

AF: - Oh yeah.

RP: - But because my technical background,

I was transferred to inspector-in-command.

I was doing this final inspection.

Which was another big panic,

because there was so much, you know

so much doing in the stages.

The guys who weren't doing good, they was...

The wiring was crossed, the was .

Sometime, you look, the rivets missing.

Then receive like this,

the wires crossed, the rivets missing,

report this thing, the guy will go,

they gonna hang him!

You can do it!

They were doing everything was possible. (chuckles)

AF: - Yeah, oh yeah.

RP: - To cover up the rivets, the holes where there was supposed

to be rivets; we was putting some kind of

plastic stuff, you know (laughs),

even up good.

They went to the paint shop to be painted.

AF: - So even in the concentration camp,

you fought against the Germans.

RP: - Oh, they did,

They was maybe not organized, you know,

like outside, the outside world.

Some camps was organized better,

some camps was organized less.

We were organized, in Flossenburg, we was organized

in groups, because security our own safety.

We couldn't go organize in bigger groups,

we organized in small groups.

Really close groups.

I was in a group, I can say, of seven.

There was one Russian officer, I know that he was officer,

but nobody else.

He was officer.

Then there was Polish in there,

there was couple reds, we call the red Germans,

the political Germans.

Socialists, communists, you know, and we spoke together

and we worked together in one group.

You get tight together,

and then you can say you get know to each other.

You form a group which is depending, you know.

You can say, if I organize

a quart of soup today, I was eating;

tomorrow, another guy got the soup;

third day, another guy.

Another guy organized something, you know,

you can say, maybe loaf of bread.

That was divided between us.

This way, we can say we was protecting ourselves.

AF: - Each one help the other.

RP: - (coughs) But still in the groups.

Not in the white.

Some camps was organized a little bit different.

But in ours, because it was special, it was small camp

and you can say it was dominated by green Germans.

Green Germans, you know, there was this

criminals.

They wore green triangles.

Political would have a red, would wear a red with P

on their clothes.

Russian would have a red rectangle with R.

But the criminals, German criminals, would have green ones.

Like I say, they were dominated,

you couldn't .

In 1944, when they start taking the criminals to the army,

taking to the German army,

naturally, this position that they was holding before,

that was taken by the Polish, Czechs, and...

Mostly Polish and Czechs.

And then the political Germans,

they went to this (speaking in foreign language),

meaning commander,

or work over there as clerks.

I can say,

one lady told me that one man,

in the Polish government,

he cooperate with Germans.

I said, "Lady,

"if this guy cooperated with Germans,

"he wouldn't live anymore."

Because

when somebody came in and said

new transport people came in,

and we find out they are in between these people,

we couldn't take care of everybody.

There are some people, like, you know,

political persons, priests,

or professors, you know.

I mean, people wanted to help them.

Naturally, first thing we have to find out, who they are.

But we have a in block Number One, in 1944,

all Germans going, it was all Polish or Czechs as clerks.

They have a file.

They check the file.

If they couldn't find anything,

working as clerks in the Commando building,

there was political, red communists, socialists, Germans.

They were our friends.

And then we went to them.

They look in the files over there.

In 10 days we know who is this certain person is.

If he's clean or not.

If he's clean, you know he didn't have anything with,

you could say no cooperation with Germans or anything,

alright, we gave him help.

I help them myself, I helped one priest.

AF: - And if they weren't clean?

RP: - 10 days.

Two weeks.

(whistles low)

(Andrew chuckles)

That's it.

There was not playing, we didn't play, you know.

We can say (chuckles)

that was, you can say, fighting for--

AF: - For survival.

RP: - For survival, and I can say person who was not wanted

and we know that because of him,

maybe 20, 30, or maybe more persons died

over there in Poland or someplace else,

or there was French men, Holland,

all nationalities from Europe,

they know that they dying, you know.

Somebody died over there.

Naturally, we didn't play with .

Because, you can say, in a camp

there was some French marquis, there was some Dutch

from the Dutch underground,

there was some from Belgium who was underground,

some Hungarian, you know, and the whole thing.

I can say there was

element that you can say highly political.

AF: - You mentioned that no one knew you were an officer.

Did the Germans execute officers almost immediately?

RP: - Yeah, because all officers supposed to report

in 1939, after the war, supposed to report in.

They announced the officers gonna be caught.

After certain date, he gonna be executed.

AF: - And what happened if they did report?

RP: - They put him in the ,

prisoner of war.

AF: - And any officers caught later were executed?

RP: - Yeah.

I saw many, many, many officers stay ,

didn't go.

I mean, it was shortage of officers

and non-commissioned officers,

but still, some stayed and took a chance.

AF: - Did you or any of your attempt to escape

from this camp?

RP: - I tell you, there was no escape.

First.

The camp was in high mountains,

on the border of the southern of .

I can say, you couldn't go no place.

Then, I can say, you have a hair

grown like like me, right, now.

Now that you have through the middle of this head,

about wide

little wider was--

AF: - About two inches, yeah.

RP: - Two inches was cut

but I didn't have it, because I always have it cut

down to the skin, my hair was.

Most, they were striped like this.

Now, most think what this one,

blue and white stripes.

I wear, because I work in this commander,

we was always in touch with the civilian engineers

we were civilian clothing,

but naturally, we have a red stripe

painted on the pants, on the back,

but there was regular civilian clothes.

AF: - So there was no escape?

RP: - No escape.

I saw a few escapes,

attempts to escape, but they brought them back.

Naturally, they used the dogs, you know,

and other things.

And the part, you know, is when they brought them back

three, four days later, they hang him up.

AF: - Hmm.

Are you familiar with the Katyn Forest Massacre?

RP: - Hmm?

AF: - The Katyn Forest Massacre, where they--

RP: - Oh, I familiar about it, I read about it,

and I tell you, it's...

Like I say, I'm looking on Katyn Forest Massacre.

I'm looking, not like it's one incident

in one ; no, big ones.

Some people, I can say,

made up, "It's only 10,000 over there."

But Poland lost six million people,

and they build up this 10,000, comparing to the six million

who died, you know shot on the streets,

like I'm sure you'll hear, you know,

they died in the concentration camp, Flossenburg, Majdanek,

Oswiecim, you know, Stutthof, whole thing.

For me, it's one global thing,

that you know six million Polish people died.

I don't pull out, you know,

"Stutthof is better, Flossenburg and Flossenburg is better,

"Mathausen-Gusen, or this thing, massacre,"

because I can say this, everything was Polish people.

And some people against me because I look this way,

but I look at a global thing.

You know, we lost six million people,

we lost 250,000 children.

Children.

I told you, the child maybe was seven, maybe was eight,

I don't know; was boy and girl,

he was right in the concentration camp.

And I tell you, this kid probably died

maybe two, three, four days later.

I told you in Majdanek.

And there was not only one, there was thousands of them.

Like I say, when you look on this thing, like me,

I'm looking from global point...

Our losses are so tremendous,

Poland has lot tremendous loss,

and I know , you know.

I one another.

Maybe you don't agree with me,

but I can say, I might be , but different.

When you are in camp,

when you are with Russians,

no Poles, Czechs, Jews,

French,

even Italians, Hungarians,

Dutch, Belgians,

all over Europe,

and you see this thing, you can say you suffer together

with them, because it was not different with them.

Germans too, it had Germans.

And then you see, you know, I can say

all because the Musulman,

Musulman was man, almost completely exhausted,

there was only skin and bone.

And you see, you can say, laying,

five guys laying here, or six.

Here's the Russian, here's the Polish,

here's the Jew, here's the Frenchman,

maybe the fifth one is Czech.

You know what you will ?

I'm nothing, I'm international now.

Because you know,

this atmosphere,

suffering together with whole nations,

people from all nations in Europe, dying together,

being burned together in the crematorium,

working together,

I can say I over a thousand days.

1,006, it take me even more.

You know, it builds up in you one thing:

that you are, you know, you are not Polish,

but you are international.

Because you suffered together with them.

He suffered the same with me.

Why I have to make a difference

in thing?

AF: - It's just humanity, it's just humans now, not--

RP: - (coughs) They're humans, they're human beings.

AF: - I see.

RP: - I didn't ask who you was.

I didn't ask; maybe he was merchant,

maybe he was engineer, maybe he was doctor, .

He didn't ask who I am.

AF: - I see.

You were just all--

RP: - And then some people don't like my viewpoint.

Some people don't like my viewpoint that I'm looking,

because I tell you, there are some people,

feel special on this side of Heaven,

that they build up this kind of thing as something special.

I say no.

Why?

It's a war.

And war has casualties.

In this moment, when this thing happened,

the Russian was in the war with Poles.

That's a fact.

The same, this thing it can say there was casualties,

like, you know, normal casualties in every place else.

In montelupe, that's a prison in icacos,

or Zamek in Lublin, or camps in .

I mean, it's...

You can you have to look now to the point.

Like I said, people don't like.

Some people come to me and they think I'm .

Because I'm looking from the humanity point,

not from the nationality point.

For me, Jew is the same, you know, it's good like

Jack , if he's right man, if he's good man,

you know, he's same for me like ,

why I have to have him?

AF: - That's right, that's good.

The reason I asked about Katyn,

there has recently been...

We were talking about the Katyn Forest,

and I was saying the reason I asked that

was because so many Polish officers were killed.

You mentioned--

RP: - You know, shut off.

Can you that shut off?

AF: - Sure.

We discussed before, you said you had 1,006 days

in the concentration camp?

RP: - I mean in Flossenburg.

AF: - In Flossenburg.

RP: - Before, about three months in Majdanek.

AF: - You were actually there for 1,006 days?

RP: - Thousand, because Germans paid me $1,006.

AF: - They paid you a dollar for a day?

RP: - A dollar for a day.

After domestication, clean,

you know, if I didn't cooperate, the whole thing,

they finally decided to pay me, to the United Nations--

AF: - Which is after the war?

RP: - After the war.

AF: - I see.

RP: - The government of German Federal Republic,

how they call this thing, FDR, yeah?

To this United Nations,

they paid me $1,006, a dollar a day.

AF: - I see.

RP: - That was official, you know.

AF: - How did you view the Allied victory?

Were you in a concentration camp when the--

RP: - No, we was in march.

They was moving us from camp,

I don't know where.

Evacuation.

There was evacuation march.

That was something where I never will forget, too.

Because everybody who couldn't walk

got the bullet in the head.

And we this march,

we got two spoons of molasses

and a pound of rye.

I mean rye; no bread, rye.

Seeds

is what we got for the march.

And we were marching nights and standing days

in some kind of forest or something.

Everybody who couldn't walk, they were shot in the ditch.

On third day, these

Air Force observation planes show up over our units,

early in the morning, they were following us,

and between

between passing and scouting,

they put us in, small forest, you know.

It was uphill, there was

roads, you know, highway down on the bottom

of the on the hill,

and the tanks came in.

American tank units stopped about,

I can say half a mile or a mile from this place.

And it's a , this SS Garth that bring

and naturally, we grabbed their guns,

they didn't go too far.

We helped them.

We killed them and then you can say

start moving backwards,

back to the American lines.

The most pitiful was pictures,

when you saw this, army corps man

in the ditch,

trying help this completely exhausted,

you know, you can say,

completely exhausted guy always ready to go back,

try to help him.

And there was pictures, every you could say, hundred,

maybe hundred, say, every hundred, 200 yards,

you could see American corps man

crosses on the helmet, trying to give him shots,

trying to give him this, you know,

and these guys was,

almost, you can say...

He was still human, living human,

but he actually say he was--

AF: - Almost dead?

RP: - Almost dead.

Most of them died, regardless.

They was moving them fast as possible,

with the ambulances to the hospitals.

Fast as possible, but they can say it's

many died.

Because there was no help.

Then another was the biggest thing.

When they got freed, the hunger was so big,

and say houses was empty.

You know, Germans flee.

The houses were empty, there was food on the table.

And the hunger was .

Some people didn't .

Start eating like crazy.

And then you can say, boom, wrong.

You was exhausted, almost to breaking line,

and then you go and start eating like crazy.

Naturally, these two things don't work,

and this was, you could say, it killed them.

AF: - When you were in the concentration camp,

did you witness or see very many

the German atrocities, because there are so many reports

of the Germans, you mentioned some of the mass killings

and the executions and that,

was this common in the concentration camps?

RP: - Common.

Those killings, they were executing Russian officers.

By the dozens.

I saw those things almost everyday.

They was guiding them.

There was hanging people,

in a, I could say, plaza down on the bottom of the campus,

the plaza, you know.

Big pole, it was hanging.

Christmas 1944, we have a nice Christmas tree

because they hang about six guys

and they put the decorations on them.

Yeah.

And most, I can say,

hanging, we call these thing.

They hang, after this attempt on Hitler,

this attempt to kill Hitler.

One of them was involved,

the chief of Abwehr; Abwehr was counterintelligence,

it was German, was Admiral...

Oh my God, if I remember his name.

You have to look in the book.

AF: - Or we can get the name later.

RP: - Yeah, it came up.

But he was putting the Russians in concentration camp

and then he was hang up over me.

Which, the whole camp was standing, you know,

every block, everything, we were all standing

and they hung him up.

Not .

Oh boy.

It's somewhere there in this book.

That was just a famous person

was executed

(coughs) by the Russian officers.

They was executing them about 20, 30 everyday.

'Cause I saw them when they were on the guard

guiding down to the crematorium.

AF: - Was the treatment of prisoners like yourself, for example,

they treated them rough, I imagine?

Beatings and...

RP: - Beatings.

You know, I could say cruelty.

First, basically,

SS men, they went a special school

to teach these men to be cruel.

To be cruel to the men.

We are not humans.

Now, two,

the administration inside the camp

was in the hands of criminals, German criminals.

Things like murderers and those things.

Natural, those instincts and freedom of doing, you know,

the killing, killing a man was nothing for them.

This was a fact.

The same had work, you know.

Those guys who was the commando leaders,

they were criminals too.

And I can say, okay, I can show you

10 more cases, small cases.

Or I can say, "You carry a case of...

"You carry a whole block of granite.

Why, maybe 20 or 30 pounds,

you know

feel a little bit strength about it.

Here comes the capo, because you think

you know this commando leader.

Grab your cap, and he's throwing this cap

against the fence.

Barbed-wire fence.

Now he starts beating you and tells you

to go and get your cap.

And he's you know,

say "You go over there," in the thing.

Sure, the guy under the beating, hitting and kicking,

he ran over there to get the cap

and the guard over there was waiting, you know,

and when he was came up across this line,

he killed him.

AF: - And said he was trying to escape.

RP: - Tried to escape.

And this was everyday's thing.

Everyday we was coming from the rock quarry

back to the campus, carrying 12, 13, maybe more dead men.

AF: - What would happen if the man didn't get his hat?

RP: - Death!

He gonna hit him so long, that he'll die there.

AF: - He was a dead man, then.

RP: - Dead man, it was easier to go over there

to be killed by bullet

instead of being killed with the beating.

To be beaten to death.

AF: - And this was common in most places?

RP: - Common in most.

I can say, about

'til about autumn in 1943.

AF: - You feel there was a change, then?

RP: - There was a change, it came up from Berlin, that

every hand is needed for work.

AF: - Germany began to lose the war.

RP: - They began to lose the war, after Stalingrad.

You know, I can say,

there was not yet, you know, the big

there was not landing in Europe yet,

but already, they lost the battle by Stalingrad,

the big battle, tank battle,

in the coasts.

By coast in the coasts.

There, they was pulling back from the east

and I can say there was a meeting .

And it came up, order:

every hand is needed for work.

Naturally, this time, they start switching

from the rock quarry business,

and they start chaining us buildings and everything

for this airplane .

AF: - You feel that the Germans selected,

you mention that they executed many Russian officers,

do you think they selected Poles to execute,

specifically Poles, or did they just take anybody,

any prisoner?

RP: - No, you see,

(coughs) in the structure

of, you could say, all the concentration camps,

forget about this camp itself,

but about this commando, SS Kommandatur,

but those, they called political .

There was political section,

which have all these files of every prisoner.

They was going to the files.

They have all spies inside the camp

spying on the guys, you know, and they can say

you never know who you're talking with.

And I can say, there was the most cruel man,

we can say, there was the SS man for political attack.

I can say one thing,

man,

they could rub this man's...

Rub it in cotton, put a little bit kerosene on

and put him in the fire.

They can take a cotton with kerosene

and start women's sexual thing, .

When men was called the polit title,

there was

you never came back.

Now, I'll tell you another story.

That's the one a little bit but it's true.

The Germans, you know, the criminals,

we call them .

They was taking the army,

because shortage of men.

When the Poles and the red Germans,

because they wouldn't want to take political Germans

to the army, they didn't want to have communists

and socialists in their whole thing,

but these red Germans, they were sitting over there

in the commando building, .

They , we can say, everything.

They know what was going on over there.

Now, we Poles, Czechs, we were sitting in

a camp administration.

Now we can say, from this guy, he can say Gritz.

German, say, you know what?

This polit gonna call you.

They wanna take you tomorrow,

You know we had done?

This guy died the same day.

?

We took his number,

put this on another dead man,

and he got the dead man's number, change of file,

okay, the man is dead!

And from this time on,

his name use name, you know, you could say

from this time on, my name.

AF: - Oh, I see.

RP: - He's gone, and we can say, this way,

we used to rescue many guys.

But in order this time on,

when you know the red Germans was over there,

they're heroes in the camp.

Administration was Poles, Czechs, Frenchmen,

and whole thing, you know.

And we can say in the

dispensary there was in that dispensary.

There was Poles, in Polish,

in French, doctors, and

and it was easy to make, you know, you could say,

take it, make changes,

all these files, make them up (laughs)

so you change around .

And we

But I could say it started

when we took over this administration.

In this time, we couldn't .

My best friend was a Russian captain.

He also didn't have a cap, he was never Russian, he was...

I don't know from .

'Cause we changed his--

AF: - Changed the file.

RP: - Changed the file.

AF: - When the Allies finally won the war,

the Americans came in, they finally won the war,

what did you expect?

Did you expect them to free Poland or no?

RP: - Impossible.

Too far to go.

AF: - to go back to Poland?

RP: - No, I mean, you could say, Allieds, Americans,

to go to Poland, it was impossible.

They would have to go all the way first.

There were still Allies, Russian and the American allies.

There has to be the third war,

this is what I was scared about.

Even if the Russians pull back to their borders,

take it from a logistic point,

Americans couldn't go to Poland.

AF: - I see.

RP: - Because it's another, you could say, 3,000 kilometers.

And you know, to logistic point,

to stretch these supply lines to 3,000 east was impossible!

AF: - So you knew, then, that the Russians would continue

to have--

RP: - I knew about,

'cause thinking from a military point of view.

Because, you notice,

everything , army's here.

Now, everything which was coming for the army

was coming on the boats or the ships

from the United States or from England.

Now, stretch this army 3,000 miles east

when you have every railroad tracks damaged,

destroyed or damaged, every bridge blown up,

and then you try to set this thing up.

I mean, from a logistic point, it's impossible.

The Russians was closer, for them it was easier,

because they can go use this...

They do this faster because they have materials closer.

And I'm gonna get you some.

We have problems to supply,

you know, to

fly even planes, you know, to Poland.

From England, and

who flies the plane from point to point from England,

and gets support

for fighting .

Because it was too far.

AF: - Yeah, it was too far away.

RP: - Too far away.

because Polish underground,

recover V2 ,

and to pick up this,

they saying even the news, this guy was in Poland, you know,

many years ago, visiting Poland

these guys, you know.

'Cause there was big operation,

because has to be protected by these two parties

and thing.

But he flew this Dakota plane, because it was this

one transport plane handy.

He would have a hell of a time.

You see, you can say,

from technical point,

you have to take possibility of...

Naturally, later on,

maybe five, six months, probably after the roads

will be rebuilt and the railroad tracks rebuilt,

they were passable, but this, right away, it was impossible.

And the Russians were already in Berlin.

AF: - Did you expect the Russians

to take as complete a control as they did?

RP: - I'll tell you.

I'll tell you one thing, I was expecting

that the Russians would take

one of the republics, Russian republics.

But you know...

I'll tell you.

have to say one thing.

Fact, you know, the Polish army was fighting in France,

fighting in Italy, fact is, you know,

that the Polish army was fighting from the east.

First started with one beneath him

but grew up two armies

who took apart a really big one,

together with Russian army.

All three parts, you know, in the arm, the ground,

partisan ,

ground works, they all stay independent.

To a certain point, in the beginning.

Like I say, we had to take, you know,

this what I was talking about the evolution .

On beginning, I could say there was red.

Completely, I could say, Russian-type red .

Then slowly, , 1956,

Poznan uprise, did you hear about it?

AF: - Oh yeah.

RP: - They brought change .

came up to the power

and they start completely change

in political and in economical systems.

They start rebuilding, they start going more, you know,

or, you know, economical and industrial .

Now, after, there was few situations in Poland.

There was one in...

Students of Warsaw University,

they had a big uproar over there

against Russia, and it was

because the daughter of the president

of the Polish was arrested,

and the president has to resign.

He took a part in this demonstration.

And this, again, brought this

no, not Gmook gabat, Gyerik.

Gyerik is actual is educated man,

and he's son of immigrants from France.

He was in Belgium and France.

He's more Western.

And actually, his way of thinking is more towards the West.

But he still has to live, satisfy with

I can say, the progress,

evolution that I was talking before,

it's going slowly forward.

AF: - What did you do immediately after the war?

Did you stay in Germany --

RP: - I stay in Germany, I went to military camp,

and I got my, went to the commission, you know,

who verified my officer rank.

It was very easy, because my commanding officer

from the academy was in charge of the commission.

I got my rank verified and I took over

organizing the units,

and I was in the units.

Platoon commander.

In Straubing, lenen.

I mean, it's different, you know, airbase,

mostly with the air force.

But in general, I tell you, when I didn't come back

did return to Pole,

the reason is from simple,

because there was talk, really long talk

about the third war.

Few months after the war ended.

And you know, after this whole thing, 1939,

I lost a hand.

I mean, four fingers.

now I can say partisans, you know, ,

who helped there too.

Many concentration camps, I finally survived this thing,

came up alive.

When somebody start talking with you about the war,

you don't wanna...

You would do the same, you know, run away!

I don't care what you run away,

said where's the ?

United States.

I had a chance to go because I was in units.

But you know, when I realized,

in 1972, when I came back to Poland,

and I realized, you know,

that I three years

opening for me,

I can tell you one thing, I made a mistake.

Because I tell you one thing,

I could go, finish my studies,

and I could be , I could say,

I didn't want to finish chemistry.

I could be today, instead of being working

in the warehouse,

I could be, let's just say, some, oh I don't know,

high-ranking official in the industry.

You know, when you start thinking.

Look here, I'm 62-year-old

and I just celebrate my 62 birthday a couple days ago.

Looking back, then you think about, you know,

this is one mistake.

I mean, it's nice here, I don't say it's not nice, you know.

But for me, with six fingers,

I have to do the work know with 10 fingers.

It costs me lots more.

In a second, I'll tell you one thing,

what's the most important thing now.

When you add two and two, and two and you make a seven,

then you know that you made a mistake.

Because like I say,

over there, still, like I say, I could be somebody

in the industry, or maybe I would be teaching

in some polytechnical institute.

AF: - Do you plan to retire and go back to Poland?

RP: - I plan to retire and go back.

AF: - And live in Poland?

RP: - First, you know, from a economy point,

financial point, it's exchange of money.

I say I can live like a king.

Second, like I say, it is like you say,

we don't have nobody here.

No, I'm bad to talk about, but it's a fact.

If something happen to me, I don't know

who gonna put me in the ground.

That's something that you have to think in my age.

AF: - Sure.

RP: - You have to think, "Maybe I don't wanna have a struggle,

"I don't wanna be paralyzed.

"Who gonna bring me, do you know,

"a glass of water or something?"

(telephone rings)

You get it?

(woman speaking foreign language)

AF: - Many people talk and said, especially in Europe,

I understand that people said, "Go to the United States,

"there's everything in the United States, land of plenty."

Did you find that in the United States?

RP: - prosperity, yes.

But,

I'm diff man, you know.

I'm looking for the pure, real point, you know, I can say,

prosperity.

I am making big money.

I make $7.50 an hour,

I'm gonna make in two months, not quite two months,

I'm gonna make $8 an hour.

But this one big, you know,

one big merry-go-round.

I am getting more money, and

everything costs more.

And we're going this way, up and up.

Because laborers getting more money,

products are costing more.

Labor asking more money, product is costing more.

Now, we coming to another point.

There are people who are on fixed...

Because I've coming close (chuckles) to this age,

on a fixed income, Social Security.

They're getting maybe $15, $20 every year, more,

which is nothing.

And if you say prices are going up,

these people are living in poverty.

Now, I can't understand, I can say,

my household, or your household.

You are in debt.

Comparable, you know, we can say we are in debt,

400-something billion dollars.

AF: - Oh yeah.

RP: - As nation.

I compare it with, I can say, to my household,

I am in debt about $50,000.

I tell you, I am in trouble.

Now, take the

this nation is in trouble.

And this debt is going up and up and up.

In some place, it has to be stopped,

because this country gonna go bankrupt.

You know, everything is nice.

We have a Valentine's Day, we have a Christmas Day,

we have this day; what is this?

This only commercial.

Buy.

Products.

Buy because we have to have them every morning.

.

I mean, this, it's...

The light is not .

I mean, light.

It's not south.

AF: - That's true.

RP: - You know, look at, I give you another example.

I give you another example.

Energy.

Look, we destroyed these railroads completely.

The railroad tracks went to hell completely.

We have a few only good railroad tracks

going .

Now, we depend completely on moving our goods and everything

on trucking industry.

Now, we bring from Arab countries

about, now, I guess it's 11 million barrels a day.

(coughs) Keep growing.

Now, one day, .

It stops.

And all these semi trucks, everything, stops.

What's gonna happen?

We don't have enough railroad cars,

we don't have locomotives, we don't have the tracks

to run the thing by train!

You know, I'm looking from the point of view

with open eyes.

I can say, because it will happen.

One day, we going, we won't be able to have enough fuel

to run this whole thing.

And we destroy completely, because it's private firms,

they don't give a heck, they won't make money.

We don't have any except fuel trucks

across the nation.

And now when this trucking industry (coughs) stops,

when the semi trucks, low,

what you gonna do?

You know ?

You wanna be one of the biggest

and it'll take a long time to get this explored.

You have to look, you know.

And this one, you know, I am listening to radio,

I am watching; I don't watch television, because, you know,

I'm working when actually good programs on.

But I'm reading.

Reader's Digest and other things.

And I get this

very seldom I see somebody talking about it.

But this thing is hanging, this Sword of Damocles,

hanging right above our necks.

AF: - That's true.

RP: - And this is only one thing, there are many.

Look at our Dow, what's ?

Dow is going down.

You know, down, down, down, on the foreign markets.

Why, because we're paying billions for the oil.

(coughs)

AF: - When you came to the United States,

you knew , you learned some English in Poland?

RP: - No, I learn in schools.

AF: - Okay, in the United States or in Poland?

RP: - In Poland.

AF: - In Poland.

When you came to the States, then, did the people here,

did the Americans have any anti-Polish feelings against you?

"You're Polish, and you're taking our jobs--"

RP: - Yeah, some, even now.

AF: - Even now they do?

RP: - Even now.

There are some, because like I say,

I never I'm Polish,

and I never hide this thing,

and I can say

they know that I'm strongly Polish and whole thing,

and I can say I did have, even at my work,

'cause I'm working, I work in cigarette departments

for years, they was putting on my door.

All kinds of crazy things.

But I tell you one thing.

Those doing, I ignored those things.

I never blew up, I ignored those things; they stopped.

But still, from time to time, it's coming back.

And this is, like I say, our own fault.

Nobody else's.

AF: - Do you feel your attitudes towards Americans has changed?

RP: - My attitude? No.

I say I have a...

Again, certain Americans, I have a high regard.

For certain Americans, I don't care about.

AF: - That's with many people.

RP: - I can say another view.

Maybe this is gonna be surprise for you.

I am starting, besides I can say,

I am starting American union.

And I have a high regard for American union.

You know, one thing, because I'm the first Polish man here

who made some kind of movement.

Over there, in Poland, they start understanding,

a little bit more, American union.

I'll tell you why.

AF: - That's interesting.

RP: - I'll tell you (laughs), I'll give you a good example.

When the doctor's wife and daughter came in,

I introduced doctor to Indians, pow-wow--

AF: - Dr. Kirkowski?

RP: - Kawalski.

AF: - Kawalski.

RP: - Yeah, his wife is doctor too,

and she works in

she's in charge of toxic foods in laboratory.

I took him, I would say third day,

he was three days here,

to see, chief warhorse pow-wow.

And I tell you, when his English start ,

the English start coming up, these two women,

I mean, the girl and this women, was petrified.

Later on, I went to

medicals in charge of this pow-wow,

I told him who is with me.

He made a nice speech,

very nice, comparing Americans and Indians,

little bit Polish, about the jobs, about these jobs,

and all that, and you know, he broke the ice.

These Indians start coming,

and his daughter, brass something else,

and then what do you think?

We made it to movies

on the pow-wow in the Winnebago.

Home movies, you know, amateur.

And he says in the lecture, that he's showing this movie

about already 10 times.

(Andrew chuckles)

Here he .

He told me this, "You know, people, they're interested."

Now they're gonna come to me in the summer

and I'm gonna take him to see the pow-wows.

I think, again, where this come from?

Basically, from the concentration camp.

My international, I can say I believe in one humanity.

You understand me?

AF: - Mm-hmm, yes I do.

RP: - And you know, it's come up, like I say,

American Indian, for me, is a human.

Maybe he's neglected, but it's fact.

But why, let him know.

In Poland, they was thinking about, when I was talking,

there was thing about Indians,

they was cutting the throats, taking the scalps, you know,

from Westerns, and .

He said, "Hey, it's a completely different people."

All they know, they see in the movies.

AF: - In the movies.

RP: - That's right.

AF: - That's very good.

RP: - The same you could say with,

I say, even Black people here.

There are some good ones, some bad ones.

AF: - After all your experiences during the war

and concentration camps and that,

how bout your attitudes towards Germans?

Do you feel any--

RP: - I'll tell you, I don't have,

I have a good friend in Germans.

I have a good friend, I'll tell you what.

First, in camp itself, I did have a few friends,

German friends.

Like you say, call this again, you know, I can say

the triangles where we were, I call the red ones,

because the green was secure,

we know the red ones were political.

Like I said, it was easy for me, you know.

The red Germans,

and I have a few good friends over there.

They were socialists, communists, the whole thing;

we didn't pay attention to the what's what.

And actually, we was talking a little bit on politics,

but not so much.

I can say I don't have against them.

Or what I have against, they can say that they don't allow

the Nazi movement to revive over there.

AF: - But for now, person comes up to you and says,

"I'm a German," you don't--

RP: - No, I don't hate you.

AF: - You don't your--

RP: - You know, I tell you one thing, when you was in camp,

one day, came up on ,

with his red triangle, you know, German,

and we talk, I talk with him,

in my barrack.

"Oh, who is this?"

He was major in old Air Force.

And I ask him, I'm surprised

I say, "What you doing here?"

He says, "Well, they put me in a concentration camp."

I said, "Why?"

"I'll tell you.

"You know, I was on some bombing mission,"

someplace, I don't know where, but he told me.

Now he bombed, he went on the mission,

and actually, there was anti-

airplane terrorists, and fighters, you know,

made it.

They made it good as .

From 30-something planes, only three came up

back to the base.

I said, "Fine, okay, what's happened?"

He said, "You know, when I was sitting in this lounge,

"I read the newspaper in front of me

"and naturally, 'Our glorious air force bombed some city,'

"you know, 'All planes returned to the base.'

"In the newspaper, propaganda.

"And I opened my mouth, say, 'Oh, what?'

"They're saying all planes coming back,

"returned safely back.

"It's only three that returned back

"and they was really banged up.

"That's it, bom, they put me in concentration camp."

You see, I can't hate this kind of guy.

AF: - You think that's one of the reasons

that Germans could have lost the war,

because they did this their own soldiers,

their own military men?

RP: - No--

AF: - People have said that

Hitler executed too many of his own generals.

RP: - Oh ya, I tell you.

When you read this, I could say I don't even see him,

but in the prison of Spandau, there was stories;

I guess I even got the book, I know about it.

Germans

know, Germans know that the war was lost,

and they wanna get rid of Hitler.

There was this attempt on him,

and after this thing, he executed them.

He really executed them in the most cruel way.

There was no , you can say execution

by firing squad or hanging or something.

There was something,

but it's hard to describe.

I know I read the story about it,

I guess I got the book even of it.

AF: - Hmm.

RP: - Germans, Germans lost the war first.

I tell you,

they extend themselves.

Go back historically.

Napoleon, 1812.

Napoleon went east for Russia.

Big battle by Borodinov,

and Napoleon lost.

Naturally, he got defeated,

and this was a beginning of the end of Napoleon.

And it's a fact that everybody who starts try

to conquer the Russia,

end up to be used.

Because the Russian territory is so huge.

Germany, even though it's Romanians and Hungarians,

there was Blue Division from Spain

and there was all .

Even with this all help, they couldn't have it right,

you can say, solid front line.

They was like sponge, and naturally, the Russian units,

especially the cavalry units, they was going around

in between these

call these bases, somehow they would call,

strongholds, you know; in between, they was attacking them

from the back.

AF: The Russians have a story that they have one general

on their side, they call General Moroz

or General Frost.

RP: - That is the saying.

Because it's continental type of climate over there.

These winters are really cold over there,

and the second answer, you know, like I said,

(coughs) that's Mud.

General Mud.

Because

roads are most, I can say, gravel.

Now, when you take this, we can say,

when you have yard of snow on top of a gravel road

and this thing melts,

melts and freeze, melts and freeze, whole thing,

road to go to hell.

Now, for wagon with two horses on the front,

that's very good, but when you put this,

we can say, German Tiger tank was probably

about five tons' weight.

Now, I can say, there was not one,

but we can say, battalion, which is about 24, 26 tanks

on this stretch of road, what you gone have?

Mud mire.

Because they gonna mix this whole thing

with their whole tread, there gonna be a whole thing,

and this old transport the German depends,

because there was not too many railroad lines.

These old transport, they bogged down.

Now, railroad lines, I can give you one book I was reading,

a nice one in Polish, that's the battle of railroad tracks.

This was, you could say, I was training them to do this,

because fighting in groups was simple: blowing up tracks.

And all the transport, on east, with materials,

they would be simply slowed down

or sometimes stopped completely.

And this path is

growing up, growing up more and more his strength,

then finally, say, this thing was really costly.

Germans lost 150,000 men in ,

fighting fascism.

AF: - The partisans were very affected.

Do you belong to any Polish organizations now?

RP: - Club.

AF: - Just the Club?

And you're involved in some of the things

at the Polish Home?

RP: - Oh yeah, and I'm involved, and I can say,

what I am, I am in general,

and I took the position because working afternoons, right?

And I'm only off in the weekends.

But in the morning, I I can call Chicago

and talk with them, I took the position of technical.

It's getting the stuff from Chicago

then fairly successful.

Now, my plans,

still, what I'm dreaming about,

I don't know will go or not.

I hope they will go.

I'm dreaming that we have to go outside the shell

of Polish Home, go in the field

between the Americans.

What I'm talking?

I could say, in September last year,

I have display of this Dows in Omaha Dow Club.

That is created Dows, and you know I have

a 45-minute lecture about Polish culture, Polish traditions.

And also, but for you ladies,

that will be more than 45 minutes,

but you know I'll talk about,

I prepare myself; I never do anything on paper,

everything I put in .

Talking at Kowalski Center was really good,

and later on, I asked the ladies,

I invited to see this art

and folks' art-and-craft exhibition,

and about 10 show up.

You see, this was first time, and I tell you one thing,

when this gonna have done,

I am the most satisfied with this lecture

to the American women.

Because this giving me chance

to show these Americans,

tell about Poland.

Because Poland is a culture country.

You know, thousand-year history,

thousand years of religion,

and take the University,

it was in

1243 I guess, I was...

AF: So it's 600 years old or something.

RP: - 800 years old.

AF: - 800?

RP: - Yeah.

AF: - No, 600 or something,

RP: -I don't know.

AF: 600, whatever.

RP: It was Padwa first, Bolon and .

I can have, you know, I talk with you now.

I talk with Chicago.

I got already reservation.

Hour-long magnetic-tape film for television

about Polish .

I have this ready reservation for this Polish

second week in September.

Then it's three exhibitions.

One is a big one, Poland, that's...

Take this.

Man on the street and you ask him about Poland,

you know what he thinks?

He think the Pole people live in !

(Andrew chuckles)

You know, people don't realize

or don't understand Polish culture.

And I can say why, why we don't?

Because it's nice, you know.

When we can go outside between the people

and to show them about Poland and tell them,

why we can do and we can get the materials for.

AF: - Hmm.

RP: - Because Chicago gonna give materials.

And I gonna go to Chicago, probably in May.

Because I'm invited in May for Chicago,

and I'm gonna go in May, Chicago, and I can say

I can talk over what my dream is,

to bring down group, like some dance and song or something.

AF: - Mm-hmm.

?

RP: - Maybe some smaller one, regional one.

Don't need to do mezosha, mezosha is the national thing.

But I tell you, one thing is no.

Colossus Dick Walters Production, I guess.

Yeah, Dick Walters Production.

This is the office, the old--

AF: - Oh, yes, yes, yeah, mm-hmm.

RP: Through him, we can see if we can,

if I can locate something and Kolowsa can talk with him,

we can bring him in.

He can make his money and part of the profit can go

to Polish Home, or we can make special.

You know, if we put some money on the side

for another thing.

I mean, I'm thinking not to stay in the Polish Home.

AF: - To go out and bring Polish culture

to the American people, to show them--

RP: - Yeah, go a little bit bigger.

AF: - What Poland has.

RP: - If we have a chance to pump from Chicago

and get the materials from Chicago,

or from Washington, or wherever, even from Poland,

heck, get it.

AF: - Get it, exactly.

RP: - And go big!

It costs the same money.

That's my viewpoint.

Because, alright, I made a program, alright.

How many people understand this thing?

(laughs) 10, 15?

Okay, next gonna be program about something else.

How many people will show up?

20 people, 15 people.

Now, go big, you know.

AF: - Go bigger.

One last question.

Poland, as every country,

has undergone some drastic changes.

Are these changes current to you?

When you went back to Poland, did you see these--

RP: - I did.

AF: - You could see major changes from before the war?

RP: - First.

We have to say one thing:

Poland before the war.

Poland before the war was mainly, 90% agricultural state.

Country.

90%.

Industry was small.

Exports, I can say,

take this on merchant fleet.

There was about 200,000 registered .

Before the war.

Under Polish flag.

Now...

And you can say it was dominated by

the same people who got the money.

Peasants and the workers

didn't have too much chances.

Why I'm talking about it?

I'm not talking big, 'cause it's not just think,

but I'm talking one deal, that between the peasants,

any worker, there are many good brains.

I am talking this what they got now.

That's a treasure, and the many good brains

didn't have a chance to go to get an education to go

and then, you know, to be used.

It was wasted.

Now, first.

Poland pressing forward.

As a socialist,

I can't say it's communist,

it's a socialist.

Maybe leaning towards Russia because they have to,

but the leaning the other way,

leaning towards the West too.

Because we can say one thing, Poland is

one of the biggest exporter to the United States.

Around $900 million, Polish exports to the United States.

Now, first, what they have done?

They have rebuilt the country from rubble.

Warsaw was 90%, 99% rubble.

Many cities the same.

Industry was down to zero.

Where the front line went back and forth,

there's not too much left.

There rebuilt .

Once was beautiful.

One of the most beautiful cities in Europe.

They built this industry

which Poland is now 10th nation in the industry.

Almost .

Take, again, example.

Before the war, it was 200,000 going to register fleet,

merchant fleet.

Now, Polish merchant fleet is over 2 1/2 million

go to register car.

Now you see, there's a difference.

And it's flying.

Now, Poland got the own airlines

who is flying to the United States

and now they start flying to Australia, even.

Polish Airlines.

Here, you know,

in

that's I can say industrial way.

Now, you can see they discover coal in Lublin .

One of the biggest deposits of coal, hard coal.

Poland is one of the biggest exporters

of hard coal in Europe.

Now, take another view; you can say forget about industry,

now we're going to education.

Education is free,

up to university included,

but it's required, you could say, government give you

(coughs) scholarship, complete.

By the required, you have a grade,

A or B-plus.

Which is good, because this element,

this really good element stays and gets .

And you could say they pushing further,

I can see in all the Polish scientists, whole thing,

going, or you can see American take us,

open with Poland, you know, American colleges.

They went to Warsaw,

cooperation of Polish universities with American.

University of Warsaw is cooperating

with University of Pittsburgh, University of

Krakow is cooperating with Northwestern University;

I mean, you see the international cooperation.

Same exchange of students, exchange of scientists.

Aims,

Warsaw and, no.

College of Architecture is cooperating with

College of Architecture of Iowa, University of Iowa,

one year, they're going.

Americans going over there for a year,

one year there's Polish coming here.

And you know, you can say education is up.

They are working hard.

Dak , eight-year-old girl, in ,

seventh-grader.

Six days, eight hours.

School.

Six days, eight hours.

And .

After this eight hours, there's religion,

or swimming pool, or something else.

You can say kids are really working long,

they don't have time to go around or all that.

But, you see, this education.

They got problem, naturally, they got problems to deal with.

You could say with meat, with other things,

but they're solving these problems.

Now I got this letter that they got,

it's much better as it used to be.

Actually, one thing.

You could say between the War of Poland,

they call this thing, because World War I, World War II,

there was no president in Poland, coming to Poland.

United States president.

Now we have already three presidents.

Who is it, Nixon?

Nixon, then it was Ford,

right, Carter.

They could say when the American president

going over there and visit the country, that's not love.

Not because he likes or love them,

that's political business.

When he visits the country, this means the country carries

some political weight.

Right?

AF: - Mm-hmm.

RP: - Now, Polish military units

are serving in Sinai Desert and in Golan Heights

in the emergency United Nations thing.

If it was United Nations, maybe it wasn't.

That's another thing.

You notice, you can say, importance as a nation,

Poland is going up.

Then you could say another thing,

they can simple, very simple things.

But we got problem here we don't know how to solve.

Medical problem.

Here, when you get sick, you know it go right away

in the thousands.

Over there, they got social medicine.

You go to hospital, you don't pay anything.

You buy foreign medicine, you pay only 30%.

You know, I went for my first or second day in Poland,

and I'm in a town of , about 100,000 people.

I see the rescue car is going here and there,

but no sirens.

Here and there, you see these cars going back and forth.

I finally ask him, "You have so many accidents here?"

You know, the rescue ambulances.

He say, "No."

I say, "Well, here is the ambulance going again."

He said, "No, Uncle.

"That's a nurse going to the sick man."

What happened?

Like my brother-in-law, he was cancer.

Terminal cancer.

There was no sense to keep him in the hospital,

but he has to have morphine shots.

Well, the nurse was coming, giving him shots,

she was coming to him, to home.

It didn't cost him.

The doctors going in ambulance to the sick man

at their home.

And I don't think they're going here (laughing).

Like I say, and they're building.

You know, they're building one beautiful,

most modern hospital, this is (speaking in foreign language)

it's in a monument to the people who was killed

during the war; it's even here, I have my $25 here,

it's another $25 is over there.

(Andrew coughs)

Most modern, I think with hotels and everything.

Medical, it's the educational and industry and everything.

Highways, you know, they have the most modern highways.

They're actually not concrete, but asphalt.

You know, this Washingkoska in Warsaw,

I care,

I aim.

Altogether, I can say, they're making progress,

you can see the progress every place.

Naturally, moving fast forwards,

you're always gonna have some place,

something you can say you forget about.

You have to, you can't follow follow in everything.

But I can say, they, osh, what you want?

But I can say I was amazed when I came over.

Figure this one thing.

Before the war, Poland didn't have

any ship-building industry.

Now, they have three big ship-building yards,

that's (speaking in foreign language).

Big, they're building 150,000 good-to-register done ships.

And that's big ones.

They built to make money,

they build in Japan the big tankers, I don't know,

200,000-some tankers.

They're carrying the oil from the Arab countries,

they build a big refinery by Gdansk,

they reproduce this thing, this crude oil

and they sell it to Europe.

Make money.

You see, we're saying, this progress, I can say,

one, the smallest progress, but they start now.

Because they have to; if you work on one thing,

you neglect another one, but now, they start

with this agriculture thing.

And I think they will solve this big problem.

Because, say I read this thing and they're getting ready.

They have mountains, that's the southeastern part of Poland.

That's the mountains, not too high, but eh, you say...

Like black ink but not so round,

more and more trees, wooded and grassy.

They're trying to get this cattle here from Montana

and start their own cattle,

raising cattle over there in the mountains,

because the climatics with Montana and this one

is almost the same.

- .

RP: - For me, you can say, it's government.

For me, I fought for this, you know.

I fought in '39, I can say, in defeat.

I fought later on, as partisan, in underground,

in all these things.

You know, they say...

I'm highly decorated over there,

and I can't get the decoration now,

because I'm American citizen.

And I got the second-highest decoration

and I got the third-highest military decoration.

I can't get them 'cause I'm American citizen.

All this time, I tried to get them,

but I can't get them.

AF: - Hmm.

RP: - It would be nice to have.

AF: - Oh, sure.

RP: - But I guess it is...

I'm gonna go with them back

because like I say, I like here.

I like here and I feel good here,

but like I say, this shirt is clothes, you know.

The body is everything else.

And I can say I have to think where my last years.

AF: - Well, thank you very much.

RP: - Helps you a little bit.

AF: - Oh, yes it will.

RP: - Maybe a little bit different to everybody else,

but they say I'm thinking a little bit different

than everything.

AF: - I appreciate your comments and your thoughts