Partial Transcript: Thomas Brownoll (TB): I'm visiting with Albert Trimble, the recently elected Tribal President of the Sioux Nation in Pine Ridge, South Dakota. I'm at his home today, and he's graciously accepted and--my invitation to do a tape for this Oral History Department.
Segment Synopsis: AT shares about his personal background and professional experiences working for the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA). He discusses some of his main focuses.
Keywords: BIA; Bureau of Indian Affairs; Department of Interior; Elections; Energy; Federal Government; Federal Trusteeship; Indian Termination Policy; Land Rights; Lehman Brightman; Native American; Oglala Sioux; Oglala Sioux Tribe; Pine Ridge; Pine Ridge Agency; Superintendent; Termination; Tribal Council; Tribal President
Partial Transcript: TB: I'm gonna move into a little different area right now. I had a friend who was up at the country club in Martin, South Dakota. And he was talking with a BIA official, a white man. And talking about the housing and the official, we don't know his name but we did want to catch his response.
Segment Synopsis: AT discusses the attitudes that are directed at Native Americans and he breaks down the social and economic factors that come into play. He also highlights the emphasis of paternalism that the U.S. federal government enacts and the lack of change over eighty years in rights for Native Americans (since Wounded Knee).
Keywords: BIA; Bureau of Indian Affairs; Bureaucracy; Cultural Ignorance; Cultural Indifference; Culture; Department of Housing and Urban Development; HUD; Housing; Inequality; Low-income; Paternalism; Pine Ridge; Pine Ridge Reservation; Social Power; South Dakota; Spirituality; Wounded Knee
Partial Transcript: TB: How are things coming along, let's say in Pine Ridge, in terms of development. I did notice that you had a couple super markets but the two nicest building was the Presbyterian church and the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) office.
Segment Synopsis: AT discusses the lack of development in the Pine Ridge Reservation at the time (1970s). He shares about the population of Pine Ridge, the state of the tribal council, and the farming/ranching industry.
Keywords: BIA; Bureau of Indian Affairs; Cattle; Cattle Ranching; Community; Community Building; Community Health; Department of Housing and Urban Development; Development; Economic Development Administration; Farming; HUD; Housing; Low-income; Nebraska; Pine Ridge; Pine Ridge Reservation; Ranching; Rosebud; Rosebud Reservation; South Dakota; Urban Development; Wakpamni
Partial Transcript: TB: I'd like to move into the area now of the election and the things that happened during election. What moved you to get in the election? Those kind of things.
Segment Synopsis: AT shares about the campaigning and lead up to the elections, in which he won over Dick Wilson (in 1975). He discusses the AIM movement briefly.
Keywords: 1970s; 1975; AIM; Abbie Hoffman; American Indian Movement; Dennis Banks; Dick Wilson; Elections; Oglala Sioux; Pine Ridge; Pine Ridge Reservation; Russell Means; Superintendent; Tribal Council
Thomas Brownoll (TB): I'm visiting with Albert Trimble, the recently electedTribal President of the Sioux Nation in Pine Ridge, South Dakota. I'm at his home today, and he's graciously accepted and--my invitation to do a tape for this Oral History Department. I'm going to visit with him now and, with that, I'm going to ask Mr. Trimble to just identify himself and give me a little background information about your family, personal things like that.
Albert Trimble (AT): (Is that recording?) Well, I became the Oglala SiouxTribal President this year after serving some twenty years with the Bureau of 00:01:00Indian Affairs (BIA). The last two of those years here at Pine Ridge as the superintendent of the Pine Ridge Agency. I was the first Oglala Sioux enrollee ever to come back to the reservation as superintendent for the BIA. And it was really the first experience that my family had in a long time, living on the reservation. My wife is nearly a full-blood Indian from this reservation. Our children are all more than three-quarter degree blood quantum. When we returned to the reservation, my three oldest children were already away from home because of having completed college or doing their graduate study work. I still have four of my children around home. Two in high school, and two sort of between college. This essentially is the--my personal 00:02:00history. I was, naturally born, grew up in my younger years at least here in the Pine Ridge Reservation.
TB: I think with that Mr. Trimble, is what I'd like next to talk to you with isthe experiences you had with the BIA. A lot of people have charged that the BIA is run mostly by whites. Forty percent of the BIA that is--sixty percent of the BIA, according to statistics, are Indian but that of that sixty percent are lower echelon jobs. What has your experience been in that regard? 00:03:00
AT: Well I think that is a pretty true observation. Almost every policy makingdecision by top officials of the BIA, seems to reflect that it comes from other than the Indian viewpoint. The number of Indians in real--definite policy making positions is very small. The Indians in the system are the lower graded civil servants.
TB: Lehman Brightman has charged some other people that the BIA should becompletely disbanded. Others have said, well we should just disband the BIA and 00:04:00have a termination policy, and turn the Indian completely out of the Federal trusteeship, out from under the Federal trusteeship. What are your feelings on this?
AT: Well that would probably be very difficult for the Indian people to copewith if they did away with the BIA because the Indians for generations have been fed by the BIA in a very paternalistic manner. They've grown accustomed to using the BIA and its services in very opportunistic ways, to put more briefly, they literally exist because of the BIA subsistence standpoint and so forth. By the same token, there is a realization that if they ever got real and true control of the Bureau, that part 00:05:00of the United States government that serves them, they could, in turn bring the Bureau back to serve them a lot more effectively. And this of course is the thing that is really denied the Indian people, is the effective way of using the BIA to live the kind of life they want to live, to develop according to the way they want to develop. My feeling about this is very strong because I felt as a relatively high official in the BIA, I had a mind and a will to use the programs that I directed to really serve the interests of the people. And when I began to do this, I came into very--great conflict with the whole system and it resulted with my being removed from Pine Ridge, from the job of 00:06:00superintendency. So, my feeling about the BIA in relation to the Indian people is that it would be quite a traumatic experience for most of the real full-blood Indian people that live on the reservation to make an adjustment to some other system. It would be no problem to anyone at all to take the BIA out of the Department of the Interior and permit it to function as a separate agency of the United States government. That might be a more practical answer. Very definitely your Western non-Indian control the Department of Interior, and they in turn, control what happens to Indians and their resources. And these people are almost invariably termination-ist minded. They invariably have their sights set on Indian resources which are beginning to be recognized as very great, especially in the 00:07:00energy area. I think that it might be very difficult to hope that the protection of the congress--but we need more access to it. And we could probably get more access to it if we were an independent federal agency.
TB: Speaking about programs that you tried to initiate that you seemed to meetreal opposition on to serve the people...could you briefly describe some of the things you tried to do without...I'm not trying to put you on the spot and want specifics and things that would have gotten you in trouble or anything but just basic programs and points of view and directions you were trying to move in.
AT: Yeah, I think the biggest area was when I tried to use the force of theUnited States government to stop people from exploiting Indian land. I tried to stop, the Indian people--a very small degree blood quantum --from exploiting land 00:08:00that should be used by Indians of more true Indian identity. And I did this recognizing that a lot of Indians, a lot of people on the Oglala Sioux tribe (inaudible) who are of very small blood quantum use their association with the tribe for opportunistic reasons. To gain preference in the use and purchase of lands and so forth. But by the same token, the allegiance that these people have to the tribe and to their own people is so minimum that they're the first to sell their land if an opportunity seems to arise, you know where they can use the money for acquiring some other property or something like that. So that's one area where I come into a very great conflict with my (inaudible) of the Bureau. And another area was the--trying to disperse the services of the BIA here on the reservation to the total population rather than 00:09:00just to a minimum number of people that happen to live near enough to the agency to use it, again opportunistically, almost every day. While some people out in the far areas, hardly had access to it. That's just another small area and other areas had to do with developing Indian employees, you know, in the face of civil service. The United States civil service regulations would seem to, would seem to impede the development of Indian employees to take higher positions and higher responsibilities and stuff. There--almost every area where you try to accomplish, where you really try to develop dependency; they want you to use that dependency to, they want you to use...I should have said develop independence. When you develop that amount of independence, capability and so 00:10:00forth, they want you to use it to split away from the tribe, to split away from your people. To enter the mainstream, so to speak. They refuse to acknowledge that their obligation to the Indian nation, the Sioux nation, remains, regardless of how competent our people become. I mean, if we want to stay here and function as a sovereignty, we have that right.
TB: I'm gonna move into a little different area right now. I had a friend whowas up at the country club in Martin, South Dakota. And he was talking with a BIA official, a white man. And talking about the housing and the official, we don't know his name but we did want to catch his response. "Well we've done a lot for Indians, but every time we do something, they don't appreciate it and 00:11:00they're lazy." Mr. Trimble was making a comment on that and I'd like to catch it because I thought it was a real fine opinion. I'd like to have you people who listen to this tape, hear it.
AT: Yeah, I don't know if I can exactly construct it but the point that I wastrying to make was that--that has been the attitude of the Bureau lately and the paternalistic way they've tried to deal with people, I mean they put their ideas as opportunity in front of people and expect them to respond by being grateful and immediately using the opportunity exactly in the way the non-Indian or the offerer thinks it should be used. But that's the inevitable, often paternalism, that always happens. It doesn't happen just to Indian people. It would happen to whites if they were used in the same way by a bureaucracy. The point is that 00:12:00community development in the real sense has never happened out here. People have never given the opportunity to respond to their own ideas of how development should take place. And a real good example here is the fact that the housing and urban development branch, what do you call it? The Department...Housing and Urban Development Department (HUD) decided that all people in the United States, decided that all people have the right to be comfortable and warm for health reasons, aesthetic reasons but--so they decide that to live in a house of certain quality in construction standards and appearance and everything else. 00:13:00But then they come out to the reservations and they stick these up in huge clusters where these people have always lived in a dispersed manner, they've lived in family clan situations. Wherever you found several houses together along, say some creek out toward Wounded Knee, you can always be sure that those people are all related or from the same family or clan. But when HUD started building these clustered houses they brought everyone in from wherever, you know, just sort of compelled them to live together. And they've managed to magnify nearly every social problem that these people have ever experienced, stuffing all these people into these areas like this and then violence occurs, you know. (laughter) This is just an idea of how white people are solving Indians' problems for them.
TB: I've been charged by poor people the same way. You know, they'll build upfifty, sixty, a hundred low-cost housing units in a section of town and 00:14:00everybody that drives past says, well that's where the poor people live. It's easily identifiable and they have the same problem with them then, not wanting to keep the houses up and then when they do get run down, we'll say they don't appreciate it. So I think that point does cross over. And I think the point about the paternalism is awfully important. I don't think white people, even myself, I like to think that I'm up on a lot of things, I don't think we really understand Indian culture. I never have. I think there's complete cultural indifference. I know there's cultural ignorance, you know, but almost complete indifference. I think it's almost, it's hard for a lot of white people to accept the idea that the Indian is a very spiritual person and the Sioux Indian, an extremely spiritual person, from what I--my understanding of little Indian history that I have had. That the Sioux people are an extremely symbolic, 00:15:00spiritual tribe, or nation. Would you kind of...comment on that? Maybe talk a little about that?
AT: Yeah, I can talk about it from two standpoints. One, I really believe thatif you should come back here fifty years from now or seventy-five, or maybe even a hundred years from now...you'd find a community of people relating to each other very much the way they're doing right now. By the same token, coming back here fifty or a hundred years from now, you're going to find a lot of the Indian people not living here. A lot of them will have opted to live a different style of life. It's happened already, we have a lot of Indians living off of this reservation that are very proud of their identity as Indians but they've adapted it to another setting. And they're happy. A lot of them feel that they've been compelled to get away from the reservation because of the lack of opportunity 00:16:00and they're unhappy. A lot of it is in the way it's developed. I think that person that feels he's been able to, you know make his own choice without pressure, without you know, being coerced, even coerced by opportunity... opportunity designed to coerce, you know. I think when you find those situations, you're going to find people feeling that they're not--that they haven't been used real well. You know, the climate that we're trying to set up here is that people can make a lot of their own decisions and, and through that manner, arrive at the very large decisions through progression of smaller decisions where eventually they're going to make their own choices too. Whether 00:17:00they want to live as a traditional or whether they want to live close to the Indian community because they feel a part of it but they want to do it with certain adaptations or whether to not want to be--to be just completely away. The important thing though is that the people as a nation are never going to develop along the lines of the United States governments expects of them until they really do these things by their own choice.
TB: It's been almost eighty years since Wounded Knee and the Sioux were nolonger a major power and they've been completely dominated by the white men from that time. They were dominated before but that seemed to be the culmination--there was no hope, there was no turning back to what it was before. 00:18:00Has the Indian really changed much in almost eighty years?
AT: No, not much. Because that domination that you're talking about, you know,kept the kind of change from happening that really holds. The power of domination that the white person, the white community, holds over the Indian is the kind that's most effective. It's social and economic, it's not a physical kind of thing, like two armed camps or something like that. Economic and social domination. Social domination, I should say, they use the social position as a way of entrenching their situation out here. Socially, I don't think the Indians could care less. Obviously, there's been a lot of inter-marriage and 00:19:00so forth, so Indians have been opting away on their own, opting away from the tribe, just by the very fact that they marry out of their own tribe and so forth. The economic thing is a lot more difficult to contend with and, we the tribe, is I think just becoming aware of how this has been used to keep the Indian community where it has been all of these years. If you look at this big old Pine Ridge Reservation here which is some four million plus acres, eighty miles deep and about one hundred and forty miles wide. This huge area you see has practically no private business sector in it. It's never been permitted to develop. Originally, there was some rationale that the Indians themselves were not exploiting, were not enough capable of exploiting to be business men or 00:20:00something like that. I mean, in the minds of some Indian people, it's almost inconceivable that you'd make your living by skinning your brothers, something like that. But on the other hand, if you take a look at the community and all the non-Indian communities surrounding it, you can see that these Indians do have to use the trade community. They take millions and millions of dollars off this reservation annually. These dollars are never permitted to remain on the reservation and develop. And you just have to believe that because of this, the eighty years or so that it's been going on, that's there's been some design that caused it to happen. We're just coping with that right now, I believe.
TB: How are things coming along, let's say in Pine Ridge, in terms of00:21:00development. I did notice that you had a couple super markets but the two nicest building was the Presbyterian church and the BIA office. There's a heck of a lot of traffic in that town. There seems to be a lot of people coming in and out of there, and yet, it's hardly a spot on the map. Do you see some moves toward more development, you know, and more urbanization, I guess I should say?
AT: No, I don't think so. I think, being specific about Pine Ridge, I think thatyou would find that the government--the federal government and the tribal government--will probably turn away from developing Pine Ridge because of its real strategic location on the Nebraska line where, it almost serves as a 00:22:00funnel, to funnel all of the financial resources that's generated on the reservation right into Nebraska. So what I think you'll see happening, over the next few years is sort of a miniaturization of the Brazilius situation where they'll probably design and build a new community in the middle of the reservation for the purposes of focusing all of our resources and development toward the middle, instead of toward the boundary situations. And the design of course, will be to develop the big business sector that the reservation really does need and the private entrepreneurship that--the opportunities that the people need, you know for this particular industry. And then of course, the overall design is to keep our financial resources within the reservation so they 00:23:00can turn over and add to the development.
TB: How many people are on the reservation?
AT: About twelve thousand Indians, about seven thousand non-Indians.
TB: That's quite a sizeable number of people.
AT: Oh yeah.
TB: That's several million dollars a year and that could be harnessed indifferent ways.
AT: Well, just the federal programs alone pour about thirty-eight milliondollars annually and that's been the average of the past three or four years.
TB: What--the tribal offices there, are you going to get a new tribal officesoon? I heard...
AT: Well, we're talking about it now and it's just, loosely formulating rightnow. But what we're really doing right now is getting some consensus from our tribe before we move. I mean, we know that--I think I started to say that well, 00:24:00we know that Pine Ridge, because its relatively large population, having five councilman, might resist some plan that would tend to still any further development at Pine Ridge in favor of developing out at the reservation. But--so what we're trying to do now is get pretty fair consensus among the outlying district councilmen to see...to assure that when we do move, we'll have the support we need.
TB: Who owns those tribal offices? Does the tribe own them or does the BIA own them?
AT: Well, the tribe owns them. The present tribal office was the former BIAoffice. When they built a new one, they gave the old one to the tribe.
TB: That didn't seem to be too big. I was there yesterday...it's about ready tofall down (inaudible).
AT: Right. It's just a stop-gap measure, and when all this happened, the tribe00:25:00had no resources at all. And now of course, the tribe can probably negotiate with the Economic Development Administration or the HUD people for some community facility that would give the tribe the type of facilities they need for government.
TB: Do you think that reinforces...because I had a thought when I walked inthere yesterday, you know that, if I was just coming through or coming up to look at the Indians, as a lot of good whites do occasionally, and I saw your office, it would tend to reinforce a negative idea of Indians. Do you think the BIA--they do that on purpose sometimes?
AT: No, I don't think so. Because there are situations where the tribe has thebeautiful new building, where the government is still existing in fairly...go to Rosebud, for example, the BIA has all of its offices installed in an old 00:26:00employee's club building. While the tribe itself has a relatively modern and new tribal government headquarters.
TB: What happened at Pine Ridge?
AT: Well, they just never did place that high a priority on it up to now, Iguess. I'm not sure that I would either. I'm not sure whether tribal government needs to be high profiled enough...in a way that would seem to be just copying the attitude of the BIA which, over the years, seems to have been kind of a loser. And so, you know, the large government office that attracts people to it for services all the time, I think is negative. And so, maybe we ought to take a different attitude. Well look at what we're doing with our council meetings for example. This was the fifth sitting of our tribal council since inauguration on 00:27:00April 12th. Now, five of these meetings have been out in districts, only one in Pine Ridge. And when we finally did get to Pine Ridge, back to Pine Ridge for a meeting, it quickly reinforced the idea with a lot of councilmen that, well, let's go back to the districts. Now, just as quickly as we can. Maybe government would mean more to the people if it was more mobile...meeting (inaudible) ...people needed. See, we were meeting out here today deliberately to try to support this move on the part of this Wakpamni village out here to form their own cattle association, you see. It was kind of a mini-power move that didn't work because some of the other councilmen caught on very quickly that if they do this, they're going to use all that $500,000 we just appropriated.
TB: They won't get any, yeah.00:28:00
AT: Well yeah, it's going to work. But I mean, the people out here did try a bitof a power move and it was very clever. But I mean, the other guys were pretty fast too, you know.
TB: Going on like this, when I listened to the meeting today, they were talkingabout the cattle association and everything. It kind of struck me funny that if the white attitude is true, that the Indians don't want to be farmers and don't want to be ranchers, then why do you see so many, I mean now that there's a chance...why are there so many people available to go into farming and ranching? For a long time, it's been said they don't want to be.
AT: I think that in the minds of a lot of these people, farming has just nowbecome an acceptable way of making a living. It's not hard to buy when you look at farming nowadays...well, you see right out here...about the smallest tractor 00:29:00you see in the field is about a $40,000 job...and it's not uncommon to see air-conditioned tractors driving around out in the fields. And these guys could practically operate them with a business suit on. You know, farming is different from the old bib overall days. Or when the farmer went to town and chewed on straw, stuff like that. They're not...the image is so different.
TB:...the Sioux people have always been know for--they're proud...
AT: Well, they adapted to cattle raising a lot quicker because you could build afence and put a herd of cattle out. You might work like hell for several days at a time, but then you could drop everything and go off for a pow-wow, come back, and all your cattle would still be there and have an instinct for taking care of 00:30:00themselves. Whereas, if you got a bunch of chickens who had to be fed everyday, and collecting...the Indian people really did not like to get tied down that much. There's no question about that. And I think a lot of people, unless you had an awfully exaggerated sense of thrift, you could understand why those people would prefer to...you know, the person that opts to make his living through tying himself down to a lot of small responsibilities, that it gives him a lot of security and he's always going to have something to eat. But he misses a lot of the bigger things in life...(inaudible)
TB: I'd like to move into the area now of the election and the things thathappened during election. What moved you to get in the election? Those kind of things. 00:31:00
AT: Well, I tried to run for tribal office because I really felt that, in beingremoved as the superintendent down here, I was deprived of an opportunity to make a contribution to the development of my tribe. I felt that I had a lot of things going and a lot of people were with me that wanted to see things go the way I espoused. The fact that I was elected by pretty well, landslide proportions out here, I think it would sort of attest to the fact that this really was happening. That my administration of government programs was in a manner that most of the people approved of. And a lot of the people, in fact, did urge me to run when I suggested I might do that. So, during the campaign I 00:32:00worked very hard and I continued to go out and talk to people and was always very consistent about the manner in which I felt--stating the manner in which I felt tribal development ought to take place. I got a lot of approval, I promised change both in style of government to people and the direction of accomplishments and so forth. And that's just about where we are right now. As you can see, we had a very busy hour and a half meeting this morning. It was a very productive meeting. The people had a very good understanding of what the problem was at hand, and how to cope with it. And I think they acted very decisively to do that. I think if we can keep up this kind of momentum, then 00:33:00solving and moving into a lot of solution areas, then you know, I think that we will probably make quite an impact.
TB: The old tribal council president, Mr. Wilson, has long been known for somepretty heavy-handed tactics. Did you feel any threat to your life or your family's safety while you were running?
AT: Well, yeah. There were times actually where you see most of the physicalthreat during the latter days of my Bureau administration, rather than when I came back and presented myself to the people simply as another Oglala citizen, Oglala Sioux citizen, who, like themselves needed to bring about some improved quality of life out here. When I returned that way, and began to effectively 00:34:00work for tribal office, well, I felt that the threats really did diminish. Although, there was one element to that (inaudible) bunch that are still pretty heavy. I mean, they're right now...but I don't. I think that a lot of these people seeing the determination of the new administration to change things is probably going to slack off. A good indication of this is the fact that I fired a lot of the goons that wanted to continue in the same jobs that Wilson had given them. And they're now claiming that I'm violating their civil rights. So, they seem to be seeking the protection of, you know, the same protection that 00:35:00they were--pretty effectively denied people in the past. They themselves did that.
TB: What kind of tactics were they known for?
AT: Oh, mostly just threatening and intimidating, and just being able to causephysical violence just about any time they wanted to. And they always justified it by accusing the American Indian Movement (AIM) of starting it first or something.
TB: Where do the AIM leaders stand today on the reservation and in the nation?Are they still active?
AT: Well, I'm sure they're still active. I don't know whether they're stilldedicated to the same tactics. And a lot of times, it was the tactics that got them in trouble more than their attitude and more than their viewpoint. Mostly, traditional 00:36:00(inaudible) people here are supporters of the American Indian Movement (AIM) to some degree. But by the same token, most of them want orderly change too. And they prefer not to meet violence with violence. And they know that people using their heads and acting sensibly are capable of creating change without causing a lot of social, emotional, traumatic situations.
TB: Well, could Russell Means have beat (Dick) Wilson in the last election?
AT: The contested election?
AT: A lot of people say so and a lot of people, of course say no. There were,00:37:00unquestionably, a lot of violations the past election but there's a lot to indicate that a lot of the violations also occurred on the side of the Means followers too. I don't--I think another Indian leader from the Pine Ridge reservation who would espouse the philosophy of a lot of the Indian people--full-blooded Indian people on the reservation--in regard to maintaining their land and resources, maintaining their tribal culture and everything, probably could have beat (Dick) Wilson easier than AIM. I think from that standpoint, I think that Russell Means probably denied some real traditional leader on this reservation the opportunity to beat Means--Wilson. By the same 00:38:00token, when I came in and did all of those things, sought the backing and support of the traditional Indians, well then I did beat Wilson (inaudible).
TB: Well, moving on in that area, is Russel Means considered, among the Indians,a flaming radical? I know the white sees the Abbie Hoffman of the Indian Movement. You know, Dennis Banks and Russell Means are fire-breathing, militant radicals. Is that true or, how do you see them?
AT: Do you mean is that the image that Russell has among the Indians? I don'tthink so. I think that it bothers a lot of people that Russell is capable of going out and getting himself into jams where people get killed and things like this. By the same token, people that have been, you know, deprived of things for 00:39:00so long will back people that say things that they want to hear. And Russell has been saying things that people want to hear around here about the rights of Indians: the right of property, the right to have their treaties observed, and all of these things Russell has been saying that Indians can't argue with. And...there's no question that there's a strong Wilson--Means cult on the reservation.
TB: How are you handling that? Are you getting along fine?
AT: Oh, I generally support the same things, although, how to attain them issomething else. I've always said that I've been a bureaucrat too long to...that I think that things done properly are done effectively. That's the reason that I think by using our lawyers and using the courts and using our legislatures more 00:40:00is probably more effective than going out and getting a crowd of people chanting and carrying signs and things like that.
TB: We're going to have to cut this tape short. I want to thank Mr. Trimble forthe fine interview and the fine time this morning at the tribal council. It was very interesting. I must say that I was greatly astonished and felt almost like I'd come to do what the anthropologists always do, look at things and then leave. And I really feel, I'm not even doing you justice on this tape, hopefully in the future we can come down and talk to you again. I think this is going to be really valuable to the Oral History department in Omaha and hopefully valuable to people that are studying Native Americans. Is there anything else you'd like to say, Mr. Trimble? Well, thank you again.