Omaha Folklore Project: Interview with Dr. Mitchel Cegielski

-Andrew Fidler (AF): April 7, 1977.

Oral History project of Andrew S. Fidler.

Today I'm interviewing Dr. Mitchell Cegielsky.

When were you born?

-Dr. Mitchell Cegielsky (MC): 1922, in Warsaw.

-AF: In Warsaw Poland?

-MC: Yes and also raised in Warsaw.

And your next question is how long did you live in Poland?

Between 1920 to 1939 and then between 1945 and 1959.

How was the life in Poland?

-AF: Did you experience like the

Depression or

-MC: Yes.

Yes, very much so.

-AF: How was the life in Poland during the Depression?

-MC: During the Depression was real difficult.

Because there were, basically unemployment.

The basic factor in the Depression was unemployment.

People were out of jobs.

And I remember my father being out of work

for about three or four years.

And all we had to live were my mothers savings.

Then things were really tough, you know.

To buy a new school uniform, a new pair of shoes,

that was lots of head scratching.

Should we buy or should we wait?

So, I was a school kid then, you know.

Not even high school.

Let's say on the junior high level.

But I still remember that we had to

be frugal, let's say.

We weren't starving.

We weren't at the bottom of the situation.

But we really had to live frugally

because my father was off, you know.

He would get an odd job here and there

but he wasn't employed for about three or four years.

Then around 19 what 34, 35 things started

moving again and then he was working

and things got better.

-AF: What type of work did your father do?

-MC: He was a technician in a huge forest industry.

You know, saw mills, building lumber,

crates, stuff like that.

So he never, he was seldom at home.

When my father was home that means

there was no work for him.

Because usually he lived in Warsaw but he was working

somewhere where the forests were in Poland.

-AF: Was it hard to get food and everything, too?

-MC: Food was, I mean, to buy plentiful.

It was plentiful.

Just there was no money.

People had no money to buy it.

At least, the farmers were working.

They were producing the food

and the stores were full.

It's just that people were pinching the penny

to buy just the minimal necessary.

On the other hand the farmers who had the food

didn't have the cash.

They didn't have the money.

So that was the proverbial splitting a wooden

match in two halves or four quarters

to save money on the matches.

-AF: You mentioned you went to school in Warsaw.

-MC: Yes.

-AF: Your early school.

-MC: Yes. Uh-huh.

-AF: And this is through

1939.

-MC: Through 1939, yes.

I got out of high school in 1939.

Just before the war started.

-AF: During the war, of course, you didn't go to school.

-MC: No.

-AF: Were you in a service?

-MC: I was (stutters)

You know, it's a period of six years

and I was partially I was in the labor camp in Russia.

And then I joined the Polish Armed Forces

and then I was in the in-service in combat.

Let's say first half from 1939 until 1943

I was in the Russian occupied territories

first of Poland, you know.

Russia divided Poland from Germany in 1939.

And then I was in the eastern part of Poland at that time.

Where we lived under Russians.

And then Russia forcefully moved

large number of Polish population from these territories

deep into the native Russian territories to, they resettled.

Some were put in prison camps

and some were just resettled.

Put in Siberia and Kazakhstan and so on and so on.

So my father and I, we were forced to live in southern,

South Central Asia in Uzbekistan.

You know, all those Turkish Republics.

And we lived, my father spent the whole war there

because he was too old to go in the Army.

But I was, in 1943...

1942 I was drafted.

And the first draft took me into a labor camp.

It wasn't a prison camp, it was a labor camp.

It's a little different story.

It was a little easier.

And I worked in the Euro Mountains

on railroad constructions, power station constructions,

factory constructions, you know, just construction work.

Until they started forming the Second Polish Army.

It was late 1943 when the Russians, you know,

they made a break-through by Stalingrad

and they were pushing the Germans back.

And they realized that at a certain moment in time

they will get into Polish territories.

So they picked up all the Poles that were left in Russia.

All the young men and some young women

and all the, whatever was left.

And they formed what they called the Kosciuszko Army.

The one that was under Russian control

as opposed to the First Polish Army in Russia

which was under British control.

Later on they left Russia.

So and then I was in the Polish Army since 1943

and then since 1944 I was in combat until 1945.

I finished around Berlin, Dresden,

you know, all these big battles.

And then I went back, I was dismissed,

discharged from the Army.

And then I went back to Poland and then I went to school.

Back to university.

-AF: Did the people of Poland

or did you yourself anticipate the takeover?

-MC: We anticipated the war.

It was known that it was our turn.

You know, after...

Hitler took over the...

Czar, you know first.

Then Austria, then Czechoslovakia.

We knew it was our turn, that he would attack us.

But, we were at least, you know I'm talking for myself

and people from my, I knew that we were so naive

that we thought that we could resist the Germans.

We were kind of cock-sure that

we'd beat the hell out of them.

But things turned completely different.

It was a disaster, it was a complete defeat.

We still are proud that Poland was the first

country that offered any resistance to the Germans.

Czechs didn't resist, Austrians didn't resist.

We did but we still weren't beating anybody.

Four weeks and 30 days, everything was over.

-AF: I understand the German intelligence was such,

or the German undercover, if you will, people

within the Polish government had a lot to do with that.

-MC: There is lots of talk about it.

That there were some that were traitors that were German

agents that were cooperating with the Germans.

There is a story, well know, that the Polish,

the commander of the Polish Air Forces which wasn't too

big but was pretty good.

In middle August, just two weeks before the war started,

he ordered a general overhaul of all the planes.

So all the planes, when the war started,

all the planes or most of the planes were grounded.

Because the engines, they were dismounted.

The engines were taken out and the mechanics were working.

How true is this, I don't know.

But that's one of the stories I can just quote you.

And of course they had what they call,

I'm sure you know the term, The Fifth Column.

That they had The Fifth Column in Poland.

There was lots of panic.

There was lots of studies that nobody can verify.

But I'm sure they had some sabotage of the railroad

stations and radio stations and so on.

-AF: You mentioned when you worked in the labor camp,

this was under Russian control?

-MC: Yes.

-AF: Okay.

When the Germans took over or,

was there a lot of oppression,

censure of books?

-MC: No see I was never under German occupied territory.

-AF: I see.

-MC: So I can give you only second-hand account.

Which doesn't mean probably much to you.

I was always on the Russian side of the division

or the dividing line.

So I'm sure you know about all those atrocities.

First of all they closed all the schools

that was for six years.

Polish children had no education

except what their parents taught them at home.

There was absolutely no schools.

Not even grammar, not even elementary schools.

They closed all the schools.

So that's, you know, they closed all the universities

and even the primary schools were closed.

For six years children learned only

what they could learn at home from their parents

or from all their brothers and sisters.

There was some underground education.

But it was done more on the higher level.

More on the college and university level.

Then on the grade school level you just can not,

people didn't want to expose, you know.

Because these were persecuted.

So people didn't want to expose 6, 7, 8 years old

children to persecution.

Besides they couldn't keep it secret either.

So they mostly learned at home.

-AF: From the Russian side?

-MC: No on the Russian side they were forced to go to school

with the Russian children.

They were on the opposite compass of education.

-AF: Okay.

You mention the public opinion as to the German invasion

and it was, you could anticipate the German invasion.

-MC: Yes.

-AF: But the people had no real idea as to when it was

going to happen or

how it was going to happen?

-MC: No, we didn't know when.

And we didn't know how.

And we anticipated, you know, at least people on the street

anticipated victory, not defeat.

But it was just the other way.

-AF: And your only contact with the Germans then

was through combat?

-MC: Yes.

-AF: The attitudes towards Germany,

the people after the take over.

Did they look down on the Germans,

a hatred for the Germans?

Did this develop in time?

-MC: Yes, from what I know about the life

under occupied territories.

There was hatred and there was a spirit of

anything from passive resistance

to active resistance.

Everybody...

It was, how can I explain to you?

There was no cooperation, no official cooperation

between Polish people and Germans.

There were traitors, you know, turncoats.

But, officially there was none.

You know, in Czechoslovakia, and Hungary, and Romania

they had what they call puppet governments.

There was never such a thing in Poland.

Poles never would cooperate.

They couldn't, they tried, the Germans tried.

They couldn't find somebody who meant something.

You know, they could take somebody off the street corner

and make him the president of the occupied

Polish territory but that wouldn't do.

But among prominent Poles there was not a single fellow

that would go to work for the Germans

as a representative to the Polish people.

And they didn't have what they call the Norwegian

fellow, quisling.

There was no quisling in Poland.

They couldn't find one.

And there was, of course, passive.

At least passive resistance that means

anything you would do to hurt the Germans was a good deed.

You were almost a hero of the underground.

Like black marketing in food, in money, in booze, anything.

Black marketing was a good thing.

It was good during the war.

It kind of demoralized the Poles because

they kind of learned to do these things

and they sometimes do it after the war.

But slow down your work.

You know, you work just because you had to work.

You had to make a living.

But nobody was ambitious to do a good job.

To give your maximum your production.

To other things, to slow down.

To the bare minimum just to survive

without being beaten up by the supervisor.

That was the work attitude.

And it takes one heck of a lot of effort

to the Polish government now to change it.

And I don't think they still did it.

Completely, at least.

You know, the new generation.

The one that doesn't remember the occupation,

it's kind of different.

But the old people, they still keep the attitude

that the government, the representative (heavy accent)

was the enemy and anything you could do to fool,

to trick him was an honorable thing.

It was an act of heroism, you know.

The people who are smuggling meat from the country

to the city to feed to people who lived in the city,

they were considered, considered themself

the underground fighters.

-AF: Was there, do you know of an organized underground

movement or was there?

-MC: There were several organized underground movements.

That was one of the weakest points in the underground.

There was at least four major underground organizations

in Poland during the war.

One was the Armia Krajowa

Which was pro-western oriented.

This was definitely the strongest and most powerful,

the best organized, best equipped.

But they were pro-British.

They were London oriented.

Americans didn't participate in it.

So they were London oriented.

They would listen to the British radio.

They had the headquarters

were in London where all the Polish government in exile was.

They were communicating by radio

and by messengers and so on.

They were pro-western oriented.

They were severely persecuted by the Russians after the war.

The members of this underground.

And then that was the Armia Krajowa

Then there was the Armia Ludowa.

Which was pro-Russian.

Which was socialist or communist.

Well communist were a small group but they were

pro-Russian oriented and they were a little weaker.

But they were more active in combat, too.

Well it's hard to say who was.

Because, obviously, the Polish Historians now,

they kind of play down the action of the Armia Krajowa

and they exaggerate a little bit, or bring into foreground

the action of the Armia Ludowa

These were the two major forces.

Then was the (speaks in Polish language)

Which was, again I'm telling you from what I know

about them from the post-war Polish.

But they were kind of

neutral toward the Germans and hostile against Russians.

They were, now they were considered almost

that they collaborated with the Germans

and fought against the Russians.

At least treated the Germans neutral.

They were less, numerically, they were less.

They were what you call, they were the...

Anti-Russian mostly elements.

They were considered, you know, they were fighting

and they were active.

But they were considered, if you want a comparison,

equivalence of American rednecks.

You know, in the way they were anti-Russian, anti-Jewish,

anti-Lithuanian, anti-Ukrainian.

They were kind of chauvinistic.

But they were still with civilian combat

And the fourth organization was the

(speaks in Polish language) The Peasants Battalion's.

Which were the in the country mostly

and they were either cooperating with the

Armia Ludowa, with the pro-Russian,

more pro-Russian oriented groups.

And then there was, of course, there were the Boy Scouts

who were with the Army of Krajowa again and so on and so on.

So that's what I, at least, what I know about the

underground movement.

-AF: You yourself had no direct

association with a group?

-MC: I had no association

whatsoever because I was wasn't under occupied territory.

I was in Russia.

-AF: How was life under the Russians?

-MC: Well, you know that this is a rather

relatively short period where Polish territories

were occupied by the Russians.

Between September '39 and June '41.

And it was very difficult.

Because Russians were imposing their rule

and there were shortages of everything

from food to coal to clothing.

And the country was over-crowded with refugees

from the western part of Poland plus Russians.

And there was a constant turmoil

because the Russians were organizing, you know,

forced transfer of people from this territory

into the depth, into Siberia, or Kazakhstan, or whatever.

They cleaned out, first the cleaned out the Polish police

and they captured Polish officers.

And these were taken to concentration, to prison camps.

Policemen, the government officials.

Local, you know, the representatives.

And the officers.

And then, you know, the officers went to the camps

and, you know, nobody knows what happened.

Nobody ever saw them again.

I'm referring to the Katyn story.

Then they took all the priests and of all the people

they didn't like, the street-walkers, the prostitutes.

So they rounded them up and moved them far back into Russia.

Now these, they weren't put into camps,

they were just settled.

They bring them to a little town and say,

"okay you're going to live here find yourself

"a job, find yourself a place to live."

You can not leave the town but you are not confined

to any camp, any compound, you know.

And I met several of them when I.

And then later when they started moving the people

who weren't born in this part of Poland.

Like I was born in Warsaw but I found myself

getting to work in the eastern part of Poland.

So they came one night and loaded me and my father

in box cars and we rode about a couple weeks

and then they brought us to a collective farm

to cull us and said, "okay you're gonna live here."

No barbed wires, no electric fence.

Just can't leave the place.

There was no way.

There was 300 miles of desert around you.

-AF: Nowhere to go.

-MC: Nowhere to go.

Besides, you know, if you don't have a passport

you can not leave the place.

Because in this place they know that you belong.

But if you found yourself in the next,

they catch you and then you go back where you came from.

So then we worked there

and as I said, my father spent the whole war working

on the collective farm.

I worked in the cotton gin, on a cotton

factory for a while and then I went into the labor camp,

labor unit, and then I went in the Army.

-AF: If someone tried to get away from one of these farms

or camps and was brought back did they impose

penalties on them?

Confinement, prison?

-MC: No, no.

They felt, if you escaped, they put you either in

another work compound or in another.

But very few people tried to escape, you know.

Because there was no point.

One was as bad...

You know, you could try to get farther south

where the climate was better or where the food

was more abundant but basically there was no way to escape.

You know that in 1942 there was a

exodus of Polish people from Russia.

You know that story?

-AF: I didn't do much research on that.

-MC: Okay 1941 when Germany attacked Russia.

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was,

Russians were no more friends.

You know that before Germany attacked Poland

in August, or July or August of '39

Russian and Germany signed a pact.

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, okay.

But in June of '41 Germany broke that pact

and they attacked Russia.

Then Russia became an ally of the

British, Americans, French, and national Chinese

and so on and so on.

So one of the basic conditions of this new treaty.

This alliance was the release of Polish people

from all the prisons, from all the settlements way North.

and formation of the Polish Army.

The Army and then the commander

of this Army was General Anders.

-AF: Mm-hmm.

-MC: Okay.

So there were thousands and hundreds of thousands

of Poles released from the labor camps

and prison camps way north and also from the settlements

up north and they were moved south.

Just because the climate was better.

And the living conditions were better.

So I've seen these people.

I've met them.

They were coming like from the other world.

And then General Anders Started forming a Polish Army

in several places.

And he had, you know, hundreds and thousands of soldiers.

He missed the officers because they were never seen again.

That's going back to the Katyn story.

What happened to them?

Then...

In 1942 when Russia really had the German news

-WOMAN: Busy busy here?

-MC: Yes, busy busy.

-WOMAN: Are you hungry, maybe?

(mumbling conversation)

(mic feedback)

-MC: Okay.

-WOMAN: Okay.

-MC: The Polish troops decided that,

it appeared that Russia may just be defeated.

You know, that was the bleakest part of the war for Russia.

Is your mic on?

-AF: Yes.

-MC: Bleakest part of war for Russia

and the Poles didn't care too much

about helping the Russians.

So the whole Army of I don't know,

sure over a hundred thousand soldiers,

they pulled through to Iran across the border.

It was agreed by a deal with the Russian authorities.

They pulled out

across the border and then from Iran, Iraq, Turkey,

Palestine, they went back to England

and they also fought in northern Africa,

(unknown) and so on.

And with these troops that took also large number,

I can not tell you how many hundred thousand, of families.

Women, children, elderly folks.

Somehow I didn't get into this group.

I was too deep in the desert to catch up to join them.

Too far away.

When we found out about it they were all gone already.

This was Christmas '41 and early '42, this exodus.

So this was the first.

Then they joined the British

and they fought in England and so on.

-AF: You mention the cutting story?

-MC: Katyn. K-A-T-Y-N. Katyn.

-AF: What is that specifically?

-MC: Katyn is the, well, okay.

In 19... well, you know that, I told you already,

that when Anders started forming the Polish Army

he had plenty of soldiers but

-AF: No officers, right.

-MC: No officers

and he went to the Russians asking, "where are these,

we know that you captured about 13, 14 thousand

of Polish combat officers."

You know the (unknown), the professionals.

And where are they?

We need them now to form the army.

And they gave them some kind of a run-around,

some kind of excuse and they never

gave them a full explanation.

In 1943 the Germans started a story that

in the town of Katyn, in the forest around Katyn.

Katyn is just a town in northeastern Russia,

in northwestern Russia called Belarus,

the white Russia, okay?

They found graves, mass graves of Polish officers

about four and half thousand of them

and they dug the graves out

and they say that Russians murdered them when

they were retreating.

And they had a committee of all kind of people

from Europe, from Switzerland, from France, from Poland,

from the Red Cross.

(phone ringing)

So anyway, so the Germans put a committee together

of, you know, forensic medicine specialists,

and all kind of quote unquote experts.

And they took them over there and they trumpeted

this up as a Russian crime.

They say the Russians did it and they kind of tried

to convince the whole world that the Russians did it.

And then they covered up the graves

and planted some birch trees

and things were, for awhile, quiet.

Then when Russians pushed the Germans back

they started turning things around.

They got their committee, you know.

They had their own professors of anatomy

and forensic medicine and all kind of experts

and they had some people from Poland,

some Americans even, they invited an American lady

and they dug up these cadavers again

and they investigated the whole thing

and they took pictures.

And they said that the Germans did it.

When they were retreating, they say,

we couldn't evacuate this camp.

There was a camp.

And we couldn't evacuate and the Germans

captured them and the Germans killed them.

And there is lots of speculation

and many books and articles written

and nobody really put the dot over the I who did it.

But the Russians point to the Germans,

the Germans point to the Russians.

Right after the war anything you said about the Germans

people would, knowing all the atrocities they did,

you know it's just one more.

It's quite quite plausible.

But then later on we really don't know.

If you want to I can lend you a book about Katyn.

It's in English if you want to read it.

-AF: Yes, yes I would.

-MC: Okay, so you can borrow it.

-AF: So to this day, no one knows.

-MC: To this day, they point in both directions

depending whom you read and who writes it.

In Poland they don't like to talk about this story.

I mean, you talk privately with people

but officially it's a closed chapter.

They want to leave the skeleton in the closet.

They don't want to drag the skeletons out of the closet.

But that's how we stand on it.

-AF: Then after the war you returned to Warsaw?

-MC: After the war I returned to Krakow

I got in medical school there so I lived in Krakow

From '45 until '59, until I came to the United States.

-AF: Then you completed or you returned to medical school?

-MC: Oh yeah.

-AF: Did you leave Poland for any specific reason or?

Better opportunities in the United States?

-MC: Better oppor..? We just, you know, we had sponsors here who helped us.

Are you asking there were sponsor?

Yes, we are both physicians.

We are both sponsored by a hospital.

We are invited to start work in this hospital.

That's how we get the American Visa.

To get a Polish passport was a different story.

Took a little bit of a wheeling, dealing.

But it was possible.

We took couple years, you know, it's lots of red tape

and lots of talking to all kind of people

and then so on but it was possible.

-AF: Then originally you came just as a visiting physician?

Did you intend to stay

-MC: No, no, no, no.

We had immigrant passports.

We had immigrant Visa's.

We weren't decided but we were immigrant.

We could stay right away.

-AF: You left Poland solely for the advancement of your

medical career

-MC: Yes.

And not because of Russian occupation or

-MC: No, no.

-AF: Past events.

-MC: No.

-AF: Did you come directly to Omaha first?

-MC: No, one year in New York, five years in St. Louis,

and then 15 or 12 years now in Omaha.

-AF: And in New York was it as a resident in a hospital or?

-MC: Intern.

-AF: Intern?

-MC: Intern in a hospital here.

-AF: And same with St. Louis?

-MC: St. Louis I was a resident, yes.

-AF: Resident?

-MC: Mm-hmm.

-AF: Did you learn English in Poland or?

-MC: I had a little bit of English in Poland

but most of my English, I learned it here.

I had some, I had no practice in talking in English.

I could read well and I could talk to my

English teacher in Poland but when I got here

I went out on the street in New York.

I certainly couldn't understand the cab driver

or the bus driver when they gave you directions.

No, no way.

But I learned quickly.

That wasn't a big problem.

-AF: Was the transition hard?

Changing from life in Poland to life in the States?

-MC: Yes.

Yes, for me and especially for my wife.

It was very difficult.

Of course, the children, they picked it up immediately.

They were small and they don't remember anything.

They remember very little from Poland.

-AF: Your children were both born in Poland?

-MC: Yes.

-AF: Did you find life easier here in the States?

-MC: Well the beginning was hard, you know,

the things that you had to learn that nobody told me.

For instance, when I got a job I went out to look

for a little apartment to live.

And you go to an agent and he shows you the apartment

and he looks at you suspiciously because

you speak with a very broken English at that time

and then he says, "okay I'll show you the apartment.

"where is your car?"

and I said, "I don't have a car yet."

So he was even more suspicious.

And then he says, "okay, if you would like the apartment

where's your banking account, where do you bank?"

And I said, "I don't have a bank.

"I'm about to start a job and start work."

And they just wouldn't rent me an apartment.

I was, without a car, without a checking account,

I was a nobody.

They wouldn't rent me the apartment.

So I finally found somebody who had an apartment

and he bought a house so he sublet me his apartment

until his lease expired.

So I wasn't renting the apartment from the landowner,

from the house owner, I was subletting from

the guy who had a lease on this apartment.

Things like that.

Communication.

It took me about almost two years

before I got my first car.

Until then getting places was a big problem.

Buses didn't come around too often

and to the hospital was about a two mile walk.

So I just walked.

People get suspicious of people who walk down the street.

But these are just minor things.

-AF: Did you hear stories in Poland about the streets

in the United States being paved with gold

and the land of opportunity?

-MC: No I heard these stories here.

When I came over here they told me that everybody

tells the story about the young Italian fellow

who thought that, he wrote his first letter.

When he writes back to home he says,

"there are three things I found about America.

"That the streets are not paved with gold,

"and some of the streets are not paved at all.

"and the third, it's me that's gonna pave those street."

So I heard all these stories, you know.

But you have to take the bad with the good.

And certainly there is more good than bad.

-AF: You say people are suspicious.

Did you find, then, very many anti-Polish attitudes?

Were people suspicious that the Poles

coming from Europe and taking over their jobs or?

-MC: No, well, I heard about it.

That Pollack is a dirty word

and the Poles are very low on the social scale.

Like right above the blacks and then certainly

below the Italians and the Irish.

But I didn't.

I was in a hospital where all the interns were foreign.

There was an Irish and a Turk and a bunch of Filipinos

and myself so we really weren't.

We were discriminated as foreigners

but not especially because I was Polish.

There was the attending, the local doctors,

they used our work but they certainly

wouldn't accept us socially, something like that.

But that has changed.

Now I don't feel, you know,

I don't know if I would join the Omaha Athletic Club

if I would be accepted if I applied.

But outside of that I don't feel any discrimination.

As a matter of fact, I heard more Polish jokes

when I came to Omaha than when I was in St. Louis or

in New York.

-AF: Was it difficult to find employment in this hospital or

(talking over each other)

-MC: A physician can, but this is just...

I think anybody who wants to work will find a job

in the United States.

I haven't, you know.

Especially being as qualified as I am.

I didn't have any problems.

-AF: Did you have to...

-MC: Again when I was.

When I applied to certain places and I was competing

against American born and American educated doctors

they got the first preference.

But outside of that I had no problems.

-AF: Did you have to take any courses in medicine

while you were here in the states?`

-MC: I had to repeat the internship and the residency.

Lots and lots of examinations.

Took me about, all together, about six years

until I finally could start practicing where I'm, you know,

joined the Creighton clinic and start practicing

like anybody else, six years.

But, you know, I was making a living

from the very first day.

Not up to the American standard

but it wasn't living off anybody's welfare, you know.

-AF: I've heard of a doctor, I believe he's in Sioux City,

Dr. Bloomar, I don't remember where he was educated.

But when he came to the States he had to practically

go through the entire medical school program again.

-MC: I don't know.

-AF: Because of something with lost papers because of the war.

-MC: Oh, if he lost his papers he couldn't prove

that he was a doctor, that's a different story.

But I didn't lose my papers.

-AF: After living in the United States and experiencing

the war, do you still find, or do you find at all any

anti-German, if you will, attitudes or anti-Russian?

Some people now look back and someone says German

they say (unknown)

and sum up their entire feelings.

-MC: Well, I'm trying not to but certainly you can not

control all your feelings completely.

I was in Germany about two years ago.

Just for a couple weeks visiting

and I admired their industry and the cleanliness,

their organization, and then the hospitality,

the commercial and airport function is very efficiently.

Much better than some of our airports function in the.

So on and so on.

But still I felt certain, at least, uneasiness.

I wouldn't say hostility.

But uneasiness towards the Germans.

And the same with Russians.

With the Russians it's a different story.

It's the government that I feel uneasy with.

The people are, Russian people are basically good.

On the one to one basis they are, you know.

But it's the system that makes me feel uneasy.

But I wasn't in Russia since 1945.

So, many things changed there I'm sure too.

But it's still different story.

-AF: When you were in Germany did you detect the same

uneasiness or attitude of the German people

toward you or toward Polish people?

-MC: I had very little contact.

I visited some friends and there are so many foreigners,

you know Europe is so, the western Europe is,

there are no borders, no passports.

There are foreigners all over, Germans all over Europe

and lots of foreigners in Germany.

Foreign workers, the Turks, the Greeks, the Albanians,

the Italians, so it's.

If they have any feelings they don't let you feel it.

Live in a hotel, Alice says that they are too polite

and too hospitable, professionally hospitable,

to show you that they dislike you or something like that.

I couldn't feel it.

-AF: You have been back in Poland.

-MC: Yes, several times.

-AF: What are you attitudes towards Poland now?

Do you see a great change?

-MC: Yes.

-AF: Of course there's some change

because of the war.

-MC: There are great changes.

Especially when you gone for four or five years.

You see the difference.

First of all, the standard of living.

It's still way below our standard here.

But the standard of living is going up.

There are still fluctuations.

There are periods of shortages and then

supplies get better but people.

The worst problem, I think, after the war was housing.

The housing conditions were unbelievably poor.

Especially in big cities.

Especially in Warsaw where the city was completely destroyed

So you could find three families living

in one little two bedroom apartment

and sharing a kitchen, and sharing a bathroom,

and of course when you cramp people together

they're fighting, they antagonize each other.

They even, you know, comes to physical violence.

Gradually they start to, nobody builds houses like we have.

You know, free-standing houses, with a yard and all this.

But, big huge blocks of apartment houses

and at the beginning they were small and kind of.

Small rooms, small kitchens.

Now they are building bigger and better and better.

So people live a little better than they did,

let's say, 10 years ago and certain than they did

20 years ago, that's for sure.

And that's one thing that I see changed.

The work attitude of people changes too.

They try to do a little better job.

They get a little more ambitious.

The work, again, becomes the point of pride.

I well done job is a source of pride or satisfaction.

We are separating from those war time attitudes

where you did the minimum, the bare minimum, of work.

It was not to get thrown in a concentration camp.

And then there is certainly great amount of freedom

in Poland, much greater of any other of the socialist

side countries there is.

For instance, there are two Catholic universities in Poland.

There is no other country to Slovakia, Armenia

that they have it.

No government controlled university.

They have at least one in Lublin.

I think it is one now, there's a Catholic university.

Of course they don't have the school of medicine or law

but they have literature, mostly humanities

and anthology, of course.

Poland is the only country where they have more

than one political party.

They have the Peasants Party and they have,

they're not called party, the Work Party

applies only to the ruling party.

To the United Workers Party.

But they have what they call Stronnictwo Ludowe.

Which is peasants or farmers political organization

and they have the stronnictwo demokratyczne,

the democratic group.

Which is, it represents mostly the

professional people, religious people, who don't want to.

They are, of course, they are under good control

by the government and by the socialist or communist party.

But there are two political organizations.

They aren't in cooperation officially with the

government line but there are.

And freedom of travel.

You see lots of Polish people traveling all over

Europe in the summer.

They like to travel.

They have a little Fiat or little Volkswagen.

They load the family and the tents and go all over

Europe, northern Africa, wherever they can.

Freedom of expression as far as movies, theater,

literature, music.

So these things are gradually improving.

Of course, there are, there is always high tide and low tide

and sometimes the screw gets a little bit more tighten

up and then relaxed.

But basically the progress is towards more relaxation

and more freedom.

-AF: Comparatively speaking with other countries

under Russian control

-MC: Yes.

-AF: The poles are...

-MC: I think Poland has the most

individual freedom, personal freedom.

Politically they are controlled by Russia.

But you don't see the Russians on the street much.

You don't feel their presence.

You feel that the government is.

There is of course a huge military encampment

in western Poland, you know, the headquarters

of the Russian troops in Europe.

In east Germany and Slovakia and in Poland.

But you don't see, outside of this town,

you don't see too many of them.

You'll see them sometimes.

But the ties are political, you know.

The government feels that there is no other way

for them now, there is no war.

No other way for Poland to exist except

in cooperation with Russia.

And then of course the ties are economical.

These things are.

Poland depends on the ore and the

export of coal and so on and on oil.

The only place Poland can get oil,

until now, was from Russia.

There was no other way, you know.

To get it from the Arabs, Poland didn't have the dollars

to pay for the oil.

So they were economically dependent.

If you remember after, when was?

1968 when they ousted,

When Gomułka came to power and he was trying to,

Eisenhower was the president.

Poland tried to get financial aide.

-AF: In '68 or '58?

-MC: Then was '58

-AF: '58.

-MC: 1958, Eisenhower was the president

and Poland badly needed money

to develop industry, to get raw material

to keep the industry going.

And the way I know, you know, I don't have any

access to official sources but the Polish government

sent delegation to America to say, "help us,

"we need a loan, credit to keep our industry going."

And apparently they got either a token or nothing,

I don't know exactly what.

Mean time they had to, you know.

So they went back home and they start

and the Russia just clamp down

on all the supplies.

Cut out the supplies.

And if you don't have cotton you have to close

the textile factories and that's a big industry in Poland.

And you don't have the ore you have to close the

steel mills and so on and so on and so on.

If you don't have the oil you close the refineries.

So that's how they explained.

So eventually they, you know, Poland wasn't

controlled militarily there was almost on the verge

of confrontation 1958 but it didn't come

to military confrontation.

So simply Khrushchev was in power in Russia

cut off all the supplies and Poland had to go back

and accept the political control for economic incorporation.

That's the, now the situation is different

because they present Polish government is trying

to get a little more independence.

For instance, they are building a huge

harbor, port in Poland at old Gdynia

Specifically to transfer oil.

To get the...

Arab, from the Arab countries, get the tankers.

And you have some independence from the Russian oil.

And then, again, they're from the biggest export

from Poland is coal.

They have lots of coal and now with the oil prices

coal becomes very important.

So they pulled the...

Ships from Poland go to Sweden with coal.

They unload coal which Sweden needs badly

and they get loaded with ore and they bring ore back.

I don't know which Poland doesn't have any.

So and then you can see Swedish and if we can, you know.

You can see that the contacts with west are getting

bigger and stronger and stronger.

You walk down the street and they play movies,

American movies.

For instance, Love Story, the queue was a mile long

when they played, you know, for people to see Love Story

in the movies.

Or, what else, The (unknown).

They are crazy about that movie.

All the John Wayne movies.

If you watch television in Poland you can still see Bonanza.

You can see Gunsmoke.

You can see The Untouchables.

Old American flicks on Polish television.

So that is the story.

You can get Coca-Cola in Warsaw

and Pepsi Cola in Krakow.

Not everywhere but it's Coke in Warsaw, Pepsi in Krakow.

American cigarettes, American books and magazines.

They are crazy about them.

Records, of course.

Blue jeans, long hair, stuff like that.

This is only on the street level.

And then you can see lots of industry that,

American industry is too expensive for Poland and too far.

But for instance they have British buses in Warsaw

and French buses (unknown)

They cooperate.

The Polish car industry.

Finally, they've broke away from the Russians.

They were producing old Russian prototype car

for many many years which was obsolete.

Finally they say to heck with it

and they are building Fiats in Warsaw.

The most popular car in Poland in Fiat.

They are building them in Warsaw, in Poland.

They get their license, their documentation,

their know-how from the Italians

and they are building Fiats.

You can have, there is a, Swedes build hotels.

Skyscrapers in Warsaw.

Very efficiently, very beautifully.

They have a huge office building

where they rent the space and they get their money back,

in Warsaw.

There is a very elegant, you know, the Hilton type

hotel in Warsaw where for big money,

only for dollars, you can stay really get good care.

Somebody told me there was even a Holiday Inn in Warsaw.

So really there isn't, the Iron Curtain is full of holes.

And of course this is all done with, the government

knows about it, they are pragmatics.

(unknown) the head of the Polish party of government

he's a pragmatist, he's very practical man.

He's, you know, by education he's an engineer.

So, he knows that politics is politics

but people have to work and want to live

and want to get rest and so on and so on.

They still have some unrest there.

But basically the situation is changing,

really improving, towards improvement.

It's kind of zig-zagging, it's not a straight row

like anywhere.

But it's certainly, there is a difference between,

let's say, '50's, 1950, 1960, 1970.

-AF: All they need is a Mcdonalds (laughs)

-MC: I'm sure they will have it.

Sooner or later we'll have Mcdonalds, sure.

-AF: Do you see, now, any class conflicts in Poland

between upper classes, lower classes?

-MC: Well there are different, yes,

there are different classes now.

Completely different, you know, there are no land owners

but the ruling class, the party apparatus,

what they call the appa...

System, political system.

These are people who are

kind of on top of everything.

And there is quite a bit of resentment if these people

show them, you now, look I'm gonna show you who I am.

So this is lots of personality type problems.

And then of course there are the farmers who,

they say that the richest people in Poland now

are two, are the artists and actors, they make good money.

And then are the, they call them (unknown)

Which means the suburban gardeners.

Those that supply the city with carrots

and strawberries and radishes and tomatoes

and flowers and so on and so on.

They really make good money because it's an open market.

But, so these are the wealthy class and these are.

But basically there is more, kind of,

a common denominator of all the people.

Of course there are people who do better and worse.

There are the professional people who have cars

and workers who ride and drive the street car or the bus.

But, not as much as it was before the war.

-AF: Before the war there was more class conflict?

-MC: Yes.

-AF: Do you see this as a possible reason

for the relatively easy German takeover?

The difference in classes, people weren't unified.

-MC: I don't think so.

-AF: No?

-MC: No, as far as defense of the country they were unified.

You know, it's like in a family.

You may squabble with your sister.

But when somebody attacks your sister

you're gonna punch him in the nose.

-AF: Right.

-MC: Okay.

-AF: Do you see attitudes of Polish people towards

the United States as, you mentioned all the

Polish industry coming in,

do the Polish people look down on the United States

for not giving them aide

when they need it or?

-MC: No, no.

It's still, I think, you know, many people have many

opinions but basically the United States is still

the land of opportunity and the good uncle

and they kinda, they see America,

they can make a little fun of them, Americans

because of the

one is the press, the propaganda.

They see them kind of like the.

They see the people who go back

and they see that they are kind of primitive

and don't know too many things

and speak kind of funny language

or wear those funny flowered hats

and so on and so on.

So they kind of laugh at them.

But still they like them.

They are very, they feel that their real

friends are on this side of the ocean.

But they try to, sometimes they try to

sock them a little bit for money and gifts

and so on but it's just human things.

Certainly there is no resentment, no hostility.

-AF: In the national costumes and things in Poland or?

-MC: Oh, they are worn only on special occasions.

The national costume of Polish young people

are the blue jeans and the colors and flowered shirts.

Just like here.

They are crazy about that.

-AF: If you had the opportunity now

would you live back in Poland?

-MC: No, my roots are too deep here now.

I couldn't go back.

You can not go back, you know.

This is a matter of,

what, 17 years, I couldn't go back.

I am always happy to go there and visit

with my friends and just walk around and look at the people

but I don't think I would feel happy.

-AF: You're still very much pro-Polish though in?

-MC: Oh yes, it's my country and, you know,

I was born and raised there.

But right now I am right here in Omaha

and that's where I want to stay.

I don't know what I will do when my retirement

time comes, you know.

The people are talking about the retirement

in Poland is a very good opportunity.

But I don't know if...

You know, it's a long time for me.

So I don't have to make the decision now.

But many peoples do that.

Many more and more people are going back to Poland

just to visit.

Which they were scared to do when, you know, when

I went first to Poland, what, 1968, I went there

and people were really worried, you know,

if they would let me come back.

But now Poland in the summer, Poland is flooded with

American, all kind of tourists.

But mostly American tourists are all over the place.

-AF: Do you belong to any Polish organizations here

in the States?

-MC: Oh, Polasky Club, Polish American Congress, sure.

-AF: Are these pretty powerful or pretty strong

organizations do you think?

-MC: I don't think they are as strong as they could be, no.

They have, they are coming out now.

There was kind of a,

I understand this is, to me it's history,

Although as to you, before the war until the Depression,

until about the mid-30's I would say,

they were very powerful.

Here in Omaha they had a Polish newspaper

and Polish home and Polish schools.

And then it kind of went into a hibernation

and now I think we are coming out of the hibernation

again, we are getting a little more active.

We are becoming little more involved

in the community affairs.

-AF: The second, third generation Poles in Omaha.

-MC: The third generation, mostly.

-AF: And they're starting to come more

-MC: They're starting to, they're becoming more interested in,

the concept of the melting pot I think is becoming obsolete.

It's again, you know, you speak English,

you are in American cities.

But, again, you have your own background.

Like the Irish, the Italians, the Germans,

the Poles, the Czechs, and so on.

And there's nothing to be ashamed of.

It's something to do, give you some unity.

Feeling of belonging to somebody.

Feeling that you are not completely lost among the wasps.

-AF: Do you think some of this is a compensation

for the Polish jokes that are becoming

-MC: You mean, like a defense mechanism?

-AF: Yes, people say now, you tell a Polish joke,

well I'm Polish and I'm proud to be Polish.

-MC: Yeah I think so.

But that's not the only reason.

That's one of the cementing factor that keeps

people together, it's defense against the

anti-Polish hostility.

But I don't think it's the only reason.

-AF: Okay.

That'll be about it.

If you have anything else to add.

-MC: No, well we could sit and talk all night.

But, I think it's enough for the time being.

If you want to come back, anytime.

-AF: Great.

-MC: Yeah.